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<Shelwien> ...2009-11-28 16:44:32
<Krugz> ya I'm back2009-11-28 17:15:08
 I didn't get much sleep2009-11-28 17:15:14
<Shelwien> I guess I didn't either ;)2009-11-28 17:17:28
<Krugz> lol2009-11-28 17:17:39
 ok well2009-11-28 17:18:02
 I'm gonna put on some music and start working on my edsac assignment2009-11-28 17:18:14
<Shelwien> what kind of music btw?2009-11-28 17:18:35
<Krugz> uh I listen to a lot of stuff, but I'd say my taste in music is pretty weird overall2009-11-28 17:18:54
 I'd say I'm mostly into older rock, techno/trance, and some heavy metal2009-11-28 17:19:55
 but I also listen to Immediate Music and X-Ray dog a lot, which I'm not sure how to classify exactly... instrumental and orchestra groups I suppose2009-11-28 17:20:43
<Shelwien> well, i kinda got tired of what i usually listened, searching something new2009-11-28 17:22:36
 can you recommend something impressive (to you) eg. on youtube?2009-11-28 17:22:51
<Krugz> sure, anything you really don't like?2009-11-28 17:23:39
 what kinda things have you been listening to? It'd be a waste if I linked stuff you already listen to lol2009-11-28 17:24:25
<Shelwien> well, Metallica etc2009-11-28 17:25:20
<Krugz> did you like the song "One" by Metallic?2009-11-28 17:26:30
 a*2009-11-28 17:26:33
 http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=YWnpwV63KiY2009-11-28 17:26:39
 ^--- here's something interesting, it's Slam by Pendulum2009-11-28 17:26:51
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<Shelwien> well, I guess I don't like DJ stuff2009-11-28 17:28:52
 hi schnaader2009-11-28 17:29:00
<schnaader> Hi folks2009-11-28 17:29:12
 Hi Shelwien2009-11-28 17:29:16
 Just thought I might have a look at the IRC channel - I always got bored by those crowded IRC channels where nobody says anything - think that could be quite different here - less people, better chat ;)2009-11-28 17:30:10
<Krugz> ah ok then.. 1 sec2009-11-28 17:30:19
 http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=OGnAzkh9kn02009-11-28 17:30:39
<Shelwien> schnaader: we are trying to find something for me to listen ;)2009-11-28 17:30:51
<Krugz> I'm trying to just single out the interesting ones2009-11-28 17:30:54
 these guys are really cool imo2009-11-28 17:31:52
<schnaader> Hm... video is not accessible for me (germany) - copyright stuff :(2009-11-28 17:32:03
<Krugz> :O2009-11-28 17:32:09
 lets see...2009-11-28 17:32:13
<Shelwien> apocalyptica, yeah, i really like that song too2009-11-28 17:32:26
 its even included in my wav testset ;)2009-11-28 17:32:43
<Krugz> http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=8JjQGt7WjK02009-11-28 17:32:48
 ah ok then you already know about them :P2009-11-28 17:32:54
<schnaader> \m/ yay, Apocalyptica is great :)2009-11-28 17:33:03
<Krugz> let's see what else..2009-11-28 17:33:03
 do you know of/like Muse?2009-11-28 17:33:21
<Shelwien> not sure2009-11-28 17:33:31
<Krugz> kk sec2009-11-28 17:33:36
 http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=btjVnTLn6og2009-11-28 17:33:56
<schnaader> Muse is a bit moody for my taste, but it depends on my own mood :)2009-11-28 17:34:10
<Krugz> youtube kinda kills the crisp quality of music, so for music like this, it kinda sounds bad but... eh2009-11-28 17:34:26
 ya Muse has some emotion to their music2009-11-28 17:34:45
<Shelwien> as to sound quality, i wonder if they do that intentionally2009-11-28 17:35:07
 its really bad there2009-11-28 17:35:14
<Krugz> http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=YhLRxui7vXU2009-11-28 17:35:28
<schnaader> It depends, some clever people know how to upload good quality music, but most people just upload it with the default settings which give crappy quality, I suppose2009-11-28 17:35:33
<Shelwien> but no, not muse either, i guess2009-11-28 17:35:54
<Krugz> well the actual music was probably too high quality so the uploader tampered with it, and is probably an amateur... so it got messed2009-11-28 17:36:02
 that's ok, I'm just testing the waters to see what you might like :P2009-11-28 17:36:16
 http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=FAiTHUaEkCQ2009-11-28 17:37:10
<schnaader> I'd recommended Gamma Ray - but that's a big leap from Apocalyptica/Muse, so you might just ignore it ;) http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=HPw9P12d1Zc2009-11-28 17:38:07
<Krugz> http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=op5YQXyvQP0 <---- Loud warning :P2009-11-28 17:38:30
<Shelwien> relatively recently i stumbled on this song - http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=in4wcKl4qiE2009-11-28 17:38:33
 kinda liked it and got whole oasis discography2009-11-28 17:38:47
<Krugz> ah ya2009-11-28 17:39:05
 Oasis is pretty good2009-11-28 17:39:08
<Shelwien> and then found that i can't really remember any other song there2009-11-28 17:39:10
<Krugz> not particularly my style2009-11-28 17:39:13
<Shelwien> same here, but i'm searching for something new ;)2009-11-28 17:39:32
<Krugz> gamma ray actually seems pretty good, thanks2009-11-28 17:39:48
 oh how bout..2009-11-28 17:40:07
<schnaader> They just brought out a new very nice album, that's why I listen to them very much at the moment.2009-11-28 17:40:27
<Krugz> http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=mipc-JxrhRk2009-11-28 17:40:42
 ah I see2009-11-28 17:40:52
<Shelwien> that xray is kinda too repeatable and i have nothing against vocals ;)2009-11-28 17:41:13
<Krugz> hehe2009-11-28 17:41:36
<Shelwien> (might be a good sample for compression though ;)2009-11-28 17:41:37
<Krugz> I like their epic-feel2009-11-28 17:41:53
 but I know what you mean, it's ok :P2009-11-28 17:41:57
 http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=idd_92ajjwY2009-11-28 17:42:37
<Shelwien> i guess i'd try gamma ray, though that youtube version is far from impressive2009-11-28 17:43:12
<Krugz> http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=UO4Usj3hHNc2009-11-28 17:43:51
 ^-- old but great imo2009-11-28 17:44:00
<Shelwien> Evanescence i know, might be an idea too, i should have it somewhere2009-11-28 17:45:25
<schnaader> Just downloaded newest mIRC for not having to rely on the webchat and to have a local log - will (hopefully :P) be back in a minute2009-11-28 17:45:55
<Krugz> http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=CUuvIi3UFK42009-11-28 17:46:04
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<schnaader> yay it works :)2009-11-28 17:46:40
<Shelwien> ;)2009-11-28 17:46:51
<Krugz> http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=9LjbMVXj0F82009-11-28 17:47:04
 :P2009-11-28 17:47:08
<Shelwien> schnaader: as to logs, we have this though - http://ps16893.dreamhost.com/log/2009-11-28 17:47:26
 and even some search here2009-11-28 17:47:40
 !grep youtube2009-11-28 17:47:44
<Krugz> lol nice2009-11-28 17:48:15
<Shelwien> i guess, apollo440 is not serious enough, though i know that song too2009-11-28 17:49:22
<Krugz> http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=H8Qp38qT-xI&feature=fvst2009-11-28 17:50:36
<Shelwien> not black sabbath either, i guess2009-11-28 17:51:02
<Krugz> well I'm assuming you've already listened to ACDC, Led Zepplin, Ozzy , etc.?2009-11-28 17:51:04
<Shelwien> sure ;)2009-11-28 17:51:12
<Krugz> hmm2009-11-28 17:51:19
<schnaader> Gorillaz at least have very nice vids - I like the kind of 3D comic style a lot.2009-11-28 17:51:43
<Shelwien> nah, i need some background music to work ;)2009-11-28 17:52:04
<Krugz> do like hardcore rap?2009-11-28 17:52:51
* Krugz is not a fan of rap, but has 2 songs that he likes2009-11-28 17:53:04
<Shelwien> same here i guess2009-11-28 17:53:17
<schnaader> Do vocals distract you, so you want something something more instrumental?2009-11-28 17:53:18
<Krugz> http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=70awZ0Sx0hY2009-11-28 17:53:34
<Shelwien> no, i'm ok with vocals, if they're not russian ;)2009-11-28 17:53:41
<Krugz> http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=A-drZnOqh9A2009-11-28 17:54:09
 ^-- rap but one of the few rap songs I can actually stand2009-11-28 17:54:23
<schnaader> Could also recommend the german folk metal band Equilibrium - some of their songs have a carribean feeling that reminds me of Monkey of Island :) http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=PO8-iYzG5FE2009-11-28 17:56:08
<Krugz> http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=5QYIlgRg9TY2009-11-28 17:56:23
<schnaader> Although there are just half as good if you can't understand the lyrics :)2009-11-28 17:56:28
<Shelwien> something funny btw - http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=h0IYlVns4_s2009-11-28 17:56:57
 that's computer-generated vocals2009-11-28 17:57:36
<schnaader> But finding music to work/code with is very hard, I'm always switching between not listening to anything at all and just shuffling my complete music collection2009-11-28 17:57:46
<Shelwien> kinda same here, but i already got bored from it all2009-11-28 17:58:07
<schnaader> Could recommend some web player like Pandora for that, although http://xkcd.com/668/ :)2009-11-28 17:59:07
<Krugz> lolol2009-11-28 17:59:37
 xkcd is great :D2009-11-28 17:59:41
 total genius 2009-11-28 17:59:53
<schnaader> And additionally, those web stations are quite bad in guessing what I like to hear...2009-11-28 18:00:01
<Krugz> did I already link Hoobastank?2009-11-28 18:00:22
<schnaader> Yes, I found out about it some years ago - it'll just give you so much "Man, that's exactly what I was thinking about" moments :)2009-11-28 18:00:44
<Krugz> http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=3Q30-2QpZVc2009-11-28 18:00:56
<Shelwien> Hoobastank might be ok - is there a whole album like that?2009-11-28 18:01:30
 not rap i guess2009-11-28 18:02:41
<Krugz> ya a lot of music like that2009-11-28 18:03:02
 http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=70awZ0Sx0hY2009-11-28 18:03:18
 another hoobastank song2009-11-28 18:03:23
 faster paced2009-11-28 18:03:28
 http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=LnaeImQ0TSg&translated=12009-11-28 18:04:37
 ^-- can't understand a single word but I think it's great! :D2009-11-28 18:04:49
<schnaader> That's interesting - almost all of your links aren't accessible for me :) I don't like that YouTube doesn't seem to display the title of the restricted video, but only shows some alternatives that are close to it, so you can't just have a look if there's some unrestricted version of exactly the same video.2009-11-28 18:05:28
<Krugz> hmm no fun2009-11-28 18:06:36
<Shelwien> need a proxy. 2009-11-28 18:06:39
<Krugz> heh2009-11-28 18:06:43
<schnaader> That last one worked (and actually is quite nice:)2009-11-28 18:07:08
<Krugz> :D2009-11-28 18:07:13
 they're goofy and fun :)2009-11-28 18:07:27
<schnaader> Yeah, I'm sure there would be some way to override it using a proxy or perhaps just registering at YouTube, but I'm too lazy to try atm :)2009-11-28 18:07:51
<Shelwien> schnaader: as to proxy, i wonder if http://ctxmodel.net/px would work for you2009-11-28 18:08:00
<schnaader> Hmm.. will have a quick try.2009-11-28 18:08:25
<Shelwien> just uncheck "remove scripts" there2009-11-28 18:08:32
<schnaader> Hmm.. almost works, now the restriction message is in English instead of German :D2009-11-28 18:09:18
 Guess they use some still accessible information to find out which country the request is from...2009-11-28 18:09:57
<Krugz> http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=UHwSk8bFS4M&translated=12009-11-28 18:10:02
 http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=2_ryNJVreiY <-- don't watch the video, just listen for music2009-11-28 18:14:21
<schnaader> Damn, it's only 3 more days of /dev/null/nethack and I didn't reach Gehennom so far... anyone playing Nethack here? :)2009-11-28 18:15:55
<Shelwien> schnaader: i started a socks5 proxy 69.163.206.237:8888 - wanna try? ;)2009-11-28 18:15:56
<Krugz> I've played it a bit but2009-11-28 18:16:14
<Shelwien> i did play moria and nethack under dos a long time ago ;)2009-11-28 18:16:21
<Krugz> I'm so unlucky, there's no way I'll ever beat it2009-11-28 18:16:23
<Shelwien> i used weird tactics in nethack though2009-11-28 18:17:14
<Krugz> you threw food at all your opponents?2009-11-28 18:17:32
<Shelwien> like getting a summon monster spell and leveling up really high at the shop level ;)2009-11-28 18:17:37
<Krugz> ah I never got that good really2009-11-28 18:17:54
<schnaader> I guess almost everyone uses strange tatics - there's just so much you don't know most time and act dumb because of it :)2009-11-28 18:18:07
<Krugz> I died from so many silly things2009-11-28 18:18:22
 I remember when I died from kicking a wall T.T2009-11-28 18:18:37
<Shelwien> well, gameplay balance problems make it boring usually2009-11-28 18:19:22
 like accidentally killing all the quest people because they were too weak ;)2009-11-28 18:19:58
<Krugz> it's not supposed to be a fair game XD2009-11-28 18:20:02
<schnaader> Actually, I find these balance problems what keeps the game playable - I'm playing some years now pretty regularly and I can see I keep getting better and better, but just can't win the game :))2009-11-28 18:20:23
<Krugz> most people say it took them roughly 4~8 years to beat it2009-11-28 18:20:47
 a few claim 2 years2009-11-28 18:20:56
<Shelwien> the version i played didn't have an end really2009-11-28 18:21:00
 i even looked up what to do in the source2009-11-28 18:21:28
<schnaader> Some weeks ago, there was a rnrg post about someone who said "My first win - played 3 months" and everyone said "Meh - that's not how you should play Nethack... but HOW did you do that?" :)2009-11-28 18:21:33
<Shelwien> ;)2009-11-28 18:21:45
<Krugz> lol2009-11-28 18:21:46
 ya I saw that actually2009-11-28 18:21:51
 imo, that's gotta be fake >.>2009-11-28 18:21:57
 but then again2009-11-28 18:22:25
<schnaader> I think this is doable if you move spoilers very much and are very cautios, but it's definitely not easy.2009-11-28 18:22:30
<Krugz> people win the lottery sometimes, so I guess the odds are abou the same2009-11-28 18:22:35
<schnaader> -move +use2009-11-28 18:22:36
 Oh, I think odds in Nethack are much lower if you haven't played it for long :)2009-11-28 18:23:16
<Krugz> lol imagine someone beating it on their first try ahaha2009-11-28 18:23:42
<schnaader> Hehe like "Yeah Nethack, I know that game - got bored after winning with every class once - after a week, I stopped playing" :D2009-11-28 18:24:16
<Krugz> XD2009-11-28 18:24:23
<Shelwien> its possible like with save/load ;)2009-11-28 18:24:41
<Krugz> after playing nethack for a while, I picked up a text-based MUD2009-11-28 18:24:52
 well of course it's possible if you cheat :P2009-11-28 18:25:15
<schnaader> Yeeees, but even with save/load it's still hard - you won't beat it if you don't know what to do and what you have to do to get there2009-11-28 18:25:29
<Krugz> could build an AI to play for you2009-11-28 18:25:45
 and make it step through a different decision tree for every replay XD2009-11-28 18:25:59
<schnaader> I'm actually playing with the thought of doing a Nethack bot sometimes, but I'm too lazy to compile my own version and think about how to insert the bot functionality there2009-11-28 18:26:35
<Krugz> ya I'm always like that, I want to do something like make a bot but I have no idea where to even start -.-2009-11-28 18:27:12
<schnaader> Strange that there is no such project around, but there has been some discussion about it and I think people just change to doing bots for other games in the process because it's easier :)2009-11-28 18:27:43
<Krugz> I would think something like nethack is easier because it's turn based2009-11-28 18:28:21
<schnaader> Well, I'd try to grab the on-screen buffer from somewhere, analyse it and send keystrokes afterwards. That wouldn't be too hard and all you'd need to start with.2009-11-28 18:29:03
<Krugz> ah see I didn't even think about that kind of thing2009-11-28 18:29:23
<schnaader> Yes, turn-based is definitely nice - especially as you won't have timing problems and can think about a move some seconds.2009-11-28 18:29:32
<Krugz> besides I have no idea how to grab on-screen buffer -.-'2009-11-28 18:29:34
* Krugz is a noobbbb2009-11-28 18:29:46
<Shelwien> isn't it terminal-based?2009-11-28 18:30:17
 there're should be input and output streams2009-11-28 18:30:34
<Krugz> http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=RwxDhdXjgCs2009-11-28 18:30:37
 I suppose so?2009-11-28 18:30:42
<Shelwien> like, you can play it via some network tunnel etc2009-11-28 18:31:14
 like telnet2009-11-28 18:31:31
<schnaader> Well, but there are routines to display everything on the screen you can modify, and there are offline versions of Nethack :)2009-11-28 18:31:36
<Shelwien> well, modifying the program for the bot seems kinda boring2009-11-28 18:32:16
 btw http://cbloom.com/poker/GoldBullion.html2009-11-28 18:32:47
<schnaader> Not if you only use those parts of the game the player will know, too.2009-11-28 18:32:49
<Krugz> heh2009-11-28 18:33:07
 one of my friends dropped out of college to become professional poker player2009-11-28 18:33:21
 he's pretty rich now >.>;2009-11-28 18:33:26
<Shelwien> %)2009-11-28 18:33:29
<Krugz> bought a house in pennsylvania for himself and his GF, and a BMW2009-11-28 18:33:39
<schnaader> Somehow reminds me of these people that went using some laser systems and genius calculations to win Roulette games in Vegas some time ago - that's a nice example of "Science - it works, bitches" :)2009-11-28 18:34:16
<Krugz> http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=N_UGFLT0VMY2009-11-28 18:34:47
 XD2009-11-28 18:34:57
 ya I guess so2009-11-28 18:35:01
 could always become a super card counter2009-11-28 18:35:12
<schnaader> Yeeah, Manowar :)2009-11-28 18:35:20
<Shelwien> yeah ;)2009-11-28 18:35:25
 btw, proxy doesn't work?2009-11-28 18:35:56
<schnaader> Ah, switched my settings, but forgot about it, wait I'll try one of those vids that didn't work before.2009-11-28 18:36:25
<Krugz> http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=L5ZbdDDNz3c2009-11-28 18:37:05
<schnaader> Nope, doesn't work - although I'm not 100% sure I configured Firefox correctly, but it can still access everything, so I guess it is correct :)2009-11-28 18:37:38
<Shelwien> you have to set it to socks52009-11-28 18:37:49
 its not a plain "proxy" like in explorer2009-11-28 18:38:05
<Krugz> http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=v4b3MBkOx5k2009-11-28 18:38:46
<schnaader> Hmm.. set to socks5, but still no luck...2009-11-28 18:39:55
<Shelwien> youtube?2009-11-28 18:40:24
<schnaader> Perhaps I'll do some web research later to see how this YouTube restrictions work and if they can be bypassed somehow.2009-11-28 18:40:32
<Shelwien> well, at least it seems like proxy works now ;)2009-11-28 18:40:52
<schnaader> Your lights are blinking, huh? :)2009-11-28 18:41:08
<Krugz> http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=oUZyEbdQpPE <-- same band as last link, different song2009-11-28 18:41:11
<schnaader> Hehe, just wanted to post an Ace of Spades link, too, because it's my favorite Mötorhead song.2009-11-28 18:42:18
<Krugz> XD2009-11-28 18:42:22
<Shelwien> i know that band too, but don't quite like2009-11-28 18:42:47
<Krugz> http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=8zu6dC8UGh42009-11-28 18:43:56
 soon I'm going to exhaust my "normal" music and we're going to start seeing weird music... :P2009-11-28 18:44:18
 http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=81aJmjUK08s2009-11-28 18:44:38
<Shelwien> well, its actually enough i guess - i'm already sleepy ;)2009-11-28 18:44:42
<Krugz> try that last one2009-11-28 18:44:50
 forgot about them, but you might like them2009-11-28 18:44:56
<schnaader> Oh, I'd like to feel sleepy, damn weekend makes me time-shift somehow - woke up some hours ago at 5pm thinking "Damn, it's dark outside AGAIN" :)2009-11-28 18:47:21
<Krugz> lol2009-11-28 18:48:06
 http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=uWNnqCDElHc <-- Hell Song, Sum 41 2009-11-28 18:49:06
<schnaader> I prefer Bloodhound Gang for "Comedy Pop/Rock" or however you want to name it :)2009-11-28 18:50:15
<Krugz> http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=SOgH_HXgHTM2009-11-28 18:50:28
<Shelwien> somehow that "southern sun" seems usable, but not "powerman"2009-11-28 18:50:29
<Krugz> gotcha2009-11-28 18:50:41
<Shelwien> 41=42-1?2009-11-28 18:51:13
<schnaader> No, 42 has to be the answer, so 41+1=42 :)2009-11-28 18:51:48
<Krugz> http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=pnHBMVOSbuQ2009-11-28 18:52:05
 XD2009-11-28 18:52:11
 it's SUM 41, can't be a subtraction!2009-11-28 18:52:22
<Shelwien> no, its called sum 41. not bad btw2009-11-28 18:52:23
<Krugz> he means 42 because2009-11-28 18:52:35
 42 is the meaning of life2009-11-28 18:52:40
<Shelwien> well, we all know that it seems2009-11-28 18:52:59
<schnaader> I really wish google would give something funny for 42 like it does for recursion :)2009-11-28 18:53:42
<Krugz> http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=C86oH5RwyJg2009-11-28 18:53:47
 lol2009-11-28 18:53:52
<Shelwien> wolframalpha did, i think2009-11-28 18:54:06
<Krugz> House of the Rising Sun, great song :)2009-11-28 18:54:15
<schnaader> Yes, it does indeed :)2009-11-28 18:54:17
<Krugz> http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Sk9RRnpFg242009-11-28 18:55:50
 Keasbey Nights - Street Light Manifesto2009-11-28 18:56:06
 http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=bWSxELGNShk2009-11-28 18:57:13
 Toxicity - System of a Down2009-11-28 18:57:25
 http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Ajy0w1XPJk82009-11-28 18:59:09
 Chasing Cars - Snow Patrol2009-11-28 18:59:15
<schnaader> I wonder if there's any way to generate this bWSxELGNShk hash from the song/video title except for checking YouTube - would help for compression :) Although I guess these are just some unique database hashes not related to the video information2009-11-28 18:59:26
<Shelwien> yeah2009-11-28 18:59:50
<Krugz> ya probably2009-11-28 18:59:50
 I would think it's just a randomly generated value2009-11-28 19:00:04
<schnaader> I always like googling for MD5/SHA1 hashes instead of filenames for downloads :) You'll get most of the working mirrors with one google search that way :)2009-11-28 19:01:27
<Krugz> http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=byhcdd6_eKk2009-11-28 19:01:37
 never knew :o2009-11-28 19:01:49
 <3 this song...2009-11-28 19:02:04
 strong music imo :)2009-11-28 19:02:28
<Shelwien> there's this btw: http://audiotag.info/2009-11-28 19:04:28
<Krugz> cool2009-11-28 19:05:02
<schnaader> Really like the Sidology trilogy from Machinae Supremacy: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=IzX7MY2U41k2009-11-28 19:05:23
<Shelwien> sorry, going afk now2009-11-28 19:05:32
<Krugz> ok bye bye2009-11-28 19:06:03
<schnaader> OK, see ya2009-11-28 19:06:07
<Shelwien> sounds like a tracker music ;)2009-11-28 19:06:39
 well, bye ;)2009-11-28 19:06:42
<Krugz> http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=T6zDfxZ4NcE ^.^2009-11-28 19:09:08
<schnaader> Nah, better use this http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=hy-H-KJRYbw ^^2009-11-28 19:09:49
 That's the first time I see dashes in hashes *lol*2009-11-28 19:10:28
<Krugz> ?2009-11-28 19:13:31
 lol saber rider? XD2009-11-28 19:13:47
<schnaader> I meant the - characters in the YouTube links, have seen some underscores in those before, but - seem to be quite unusual2009-11-28 19:14:38
<Krugz> http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=v1ieA-1vDEQ&feature=related2009-11-28 19:14:47
 ^--- there's another one2009-11-28 19:14:52
<schnaader> Hmm.. don't know "Lupin the third" - I thought I knew almost everyone of those 90s TV anime series, seems I don't2009-11-28 19:16:37
<Krugz> it's older then 90s2009-11-28 19:16:45
 it's way back2009-11-28 19:16:48
<schnaader> Yes, most of them are older, but much of them were shown in german TV in the 90s, that's why I call them like this :)2009-11-28 19:17:50
<Krugz> oic2009-11-28 19:17:59
 random question for you, any chance you know anything about Edsac?2009-11-28 19:18:15
  particulary, how to program for it2009-11-28 19:18:25
 have a homework assignment involving programming for an Edsac emulator but I can't seem to get it working2009-11-28 19:19:38
<schnaader> Saw the Wikipedia link in the log Shelwien posted in the forum :) No, never heard of it before...2009-11-28 19:19:52
<Krugz> ah ok2009-11-28 19:20:09
<schnaader> Is there some reference or sample code of how it looks like around?2009-11-28 19:20:10
<Krugz> ya2009-11-28 19:20:15
 I have plenty2009-11-28 19:20:19
 1 sec..2009-11-28 19:20:22
<schnaader> Ah, just seen the "Edsac Simulator" link2009-11-28 19:20:35
<Krugz> http://www.dcs.warwick.ac.uk/~edsac/2009-11-28 19:20:38
 ya2009-11-28 19:20:40
<schnaader> This looks weird - but interesting, too :)2009-11-28 19:20:57
<Krugz> the downloads come with sample code and PDFs2009-11-28 19:20:58
 basically the edsac is one of those ancient relic computers 2009-11-28 19:21:28
 they used giant tanks filled with mercury to store data2009-11-28 19:21:38
<schnaader> Ah, these green dots are LEDs, right?2009-11-28 19:21:49
<Krugz> ya they represent the stores 2009-11-28 19:22:06
 each row is a store2009-11-28 19:22:12
 each sqaure is a tank2009-11-28 19:22:16
 basically it operates like a typical von neumann architecture2009-11-28 19:22:54
 the stores are the memory, the accumulator is sort of like the ALU2009-11-28 19:23:21
 the smaller special stores are like registers2009-11-28 19:23:38
 there's a Program counter etc etc2009-11-28 19:23:52
<schnaader> Ah, I see the architectur diagram, yes, seems quite familiar so far2009-11-28 19:24:07
<Krugz> originally you would code by using punch cards2009-11-28 19:24:23
<schnaader> Except that this seems to be the pre-mnemonic time, the code looks quite cryptic...2009-11-28 19:24:52
<Krugz> but obviously that's very painful so the emulator has a sort of slightly higher level langauge using a combination of letters and numbers2009-11-28 19:24:57
 so like2009-11-28 19:25:01
<schnaader> Ah yes, punch cards explains this, of course2009-11-28 19:25:03
<Krugz> A 34 F2009-11-28 19:25:12
 is Add the data stored in location 34 to the register2009-11-28 19:25:27
 the F denotes the length of the instruction2009-11-28 19:25:37
 if it's F, it's 17-bits2009-11-28 19:25:49
 if it's D, it's 3500bits2009-11-28 19:26:00
 err2009-11-28 19:26:04
 35-bit*2009-11-28 19:26:08
 first bit in all instructions isn't writable so it's disregarded, each store is 18 bits so.. (18 - 1) 17 bits, double is (18 + 18 -1) 35 bits2009-11-28 19:26:59
<schnaader> Just seeing this in the PDF - 17 and 35 bit registers, funny. Must be quite strange to do a compiler/simulator for this only having the choice between 32 and 64 bit on todays machines :)2009-11-28 19:26:59
<Krugz> :P2009-11-28 19:27:11
 ya I'm sure it was fun for them XD2009-11-28 19:27:27
<schnaader> Although I'd stick to 64 bit in this case, 32+3 seems like a way too complicated way to go2009-11-28 19:27:51
<Krugz> hmm maybe2009-11-28 19:28:21
 anyhow, the problem I'm having is that I can't seem to get anything to work properly at all2009-11-28 19:28:39
<schnaader> Using greek characters is another interesting thing2009-11-28 19:28:45
<Krugz> it should be pretty simple, for example, to add a value to the accumulator and then store it somewhere 2009-11-28 19:28:59
 ya not sure why they chose to do that2009-11-28 19:29:13
<schnaader> So what have you done so far or - to start with - what is the task you have to do?2009-11-28 19:29:32
<Krugz> All I have to do is add 4 numbers together2009-11-28 19:29:52
 I don't have to use user-input or anything fancy2009-11-28 19:30:02
 and I don't have to print an output to the console either2009-11-28 19:30:08
 just need to store the final sum into a store2009-11-28 19:30:18
<schnaader> Ah, so you have to write the Edsac code for this?2009-11-28 19:30:26
<Krugz> yes2009-11-28 19:30:32
 it seems really easy just looking at it but2009-11-28 19:30:45
 it just doesn't work for me lol2009-11-28 19:31:00
 I went ahead and did the other assignments already2009-11-28 19:31:12
<schnaader> Hmm.. I just see the "Cubes" program in that PDF, seems quite counter-intuitive indeed :)2009-11-28 19:32:02
<Krugz> like programming a VSM (Virtual Stack Machine), and a MIPS architecture, as well as programming a real ATtiny ..2009-11-28 19:32:03
 well one of the things you have to realize is that there is code running that you can't see2009-11-28 19:32:31
 there's 2 "intial order" set2009-11-28 19:32:42
 s*2009-11-28 19:32:44
 typically you use order set 22009-11-28 19:32:53
 it sets up the edsac for use basically2009-11-28 19:33:07
 and one of the things you wouldn't know about it is that the first 2 lines in your code won't be read normally2009-11-28 19:33:24
 the first line sets up a loader or something like that2009-11-28 19:33:37
 and the 2nd line does something else too.. can't remember atm2009-11-28 19:33:47
 but even so2009-11-28 19:36:16
 it's just weird2009-11-28 19:36:19
 it should be easy to run the program with commands like2009-11-28 19:36:30
<schnaader> Yes it seems to be a very strange thing - programming MIPS must have been like a relief after that :)2009-11-28 19:36:35
<Krugz> A 1 F2009-11-28 19:36:36
 T 64 F2009-11-28 19:36:42
 ya MIPS was cake2009-11-28 19:36:56
 ok well I'll start working on that again2009-11-28 19:39:42
<schnaader> Wonder we didn't hear anything about this thing at university - our prof had brought up some similar weird architectures in the course.2009-11-28 19:39:53
 Good luck, I fear you'd be finished until I'd be ready to help you with it :)2009-11-28 19:40:25
<Krugz> lol2009-11-28 19:40:33
 I'm not that far along :P2009-11-28 19:40:40
 umm idk my professor is pretty intense, we're going off the MIT course2009-11-28 19:41:16
 on one hand it makes me really glad I didn't get into MIT, on the other hand it makes me really sad that I didn't get into MIT -.-;2009-11-28 19:41:50
<schnaader> I think I know what you mean :)2009-11-28 19:42:31
 It would be interesting to do, but you are glad you don't have to :)2009-11-28 19:43:21
<Krugz> well for me, it's more about laziness vs. productiveness2009-11-28 19:43:38
<schnaader> Laziness is a thing about us humans that would be soo nice to live without...2009-11-28 19:45:15
* Krugz nods2009-11-28 19:45:31
 Sometimes I write brilliant code two days in a row and really get somewhere and on other days I can't get me to start with something although I'd really like to...2009-11-28 19:47:14
<Krugz> ya same here, except I don't write brilliant code :P2009-11-28 19:47:42
 my laziness has set me back far enough that I'm way under-par for what I should know by now2009-11-28 19:48:17
<schnaader> Do you know http://projecteuler.net/ ? If you want to improve your coding skills, this is one of the first places to go - except if you don't like math exercices :)2009-11-28 19:49:48
<Krugz> I don't mind math but I think math hates me :P2009-11-28 19:50:11
<schnaader> :)2009-11-28 19:50:42
<Krugz> I have a bad history when it comes to math2009-11-28 19:51:12
 thanks for the site, I'll check it out later2009-11-28 19:51:57
<schnaader> Especially if you solved one of the problems there, you get access to a discussion board for it where others post their solution in many different programming languages which can be very interesting.2009-11-28 19:53:35
<Krugz> hmm ok2009-11-28 19:54:33
<schnaader> You might even have a chance to stumble about some Edsac code there :)2009-11-28 19:54:58
<Krugz> my cat is being a pest..2009-11-28 19:58:55
<schnaader> Why? Is she jumping around or does she just still want more food?2009-11-28 19:59:48
 err -she +it - to make it proper english :)2009-11-28 20:00:45
<Krugz> he* anyways2009-11-28 20:02:31
<schnaader> Then it was even more wrong :)2009-11-28 20:02:49
<Krugz> and he's trying to bite my cords, then dragging bread off my plate and running under the bed with it2009-11-28 20:02:57
<schnaader> BAD cat :)2009-11-28 20:03:15
<Krugz> bored cat2009-11-28 20:03:23
<schnaader> :)2009-11-28 20:03:34
 Put him in the washing machine then won't get bored there :P Ouch... that was a mean joke2009-11-28 20:04:49
<Krugz> lol2009-11-28 20:08:25
 bored cat => dead cat -.-;;2009-11-28 20:08:45
* Krugz sighs2009-11-28 20:11:22
 this edsac stuff is annoying!2009-11-28 20:11:36
<schnaader> Can imagine that :) Especially if one knows it could be so much easier to add some numbers :)2009-11-28 20:12:05
<Krugz> XD2009-11-28 20:12:13
 if professor!=happy, a = a + n, else print "yay done" XD2009-11-28 20:12:57
<schnaader> Although I usually love such challenges - but I'd choose Brainfuck as language :)2009-11-28 20:13:17
 XD2009-11-28 20:13:37
<Krugz> I remember a guy made a langauge once where everything was represented as a single character..2009-11-28 20:13:41
 don't remember what it was called2009-11-28 20:13:50
 the instructions looked like jibberish2009-11-28 20:14:04
 very cryptic2009-11-28 20:14:10
<schnaader> Hmm.. in Brainfuck, each instructions is a single character and there are only 8 instructions :)2009-11-28 20:14:35
<Krugz> ah I think this person I'm talking about used a larger instruction set2009-11-28 20:14:57
<schnaader> Hello World in BF looks like this: >+++++++++[<++++++++>-]<.>+++++++[<++++>-]<+.+++++++..+++.[-]2009-11-28 20:15:23
 >++++++++[<++++>-] <.>+++++++++++[<++++++++>-]<-.--------.+++2009-11-28 20:15:23
 .------.--------.[-]>++++++++[<++++>- ]<+.[-]++++++++++.2009-11-28 20:15:23
 Hmm.. somehow that got formatted into 3 lines :)2009-11-28 20:15:48
<Krugz> probably a newline IRC character somewhere in there2009-11-28 20:16:05
<schnaader> Ah no, I see... the website I got it from has wrapped the lines.2009-11-28 20:16:29
<Krugz> oic2009-11-28 20:16:40
 I wish I had my whiteboard with me2009-11-28 20:17:48
 I bought a big whiteboard for doing stuff where I needed a lot of writing space2009-11-28 20:18:08
 (at the time I was taking a classes called Numerical Analysis, it was hellish)2009-11-28 20:18:26
 (not coincidentally, it was lead by the same professor I have now for this class :P)2009-11-28 20:18:49
<schnaader> Ah this is useful, indeed. Although I managed to be content with Pen&Paper or text files :)2009-11-28 20:19:04
<Krugz> well the work was very complicated and often you needed to make complicated graphs just ot understand what was actually happening2009-11-28 20:19:47
<schnaader> Although I must agree it is much more useful to have much space especially for math things2009-11-28 20:20:00
<Krugz> I remember we formed a study group and it would take us 4 hours of deliberate work to finish a single problem.. it was hard 2009-11-28 20:20:07
 it's basically a math + engineering + computer science + critical thinking class all wrapped into one bundle with lots of merciless problems and a professor who was aiming to finish the entire book2009-11-28 20:21:26
*** matt_ has joined the channel2009-11-28 20:22:11
 you'd get a problem, have to come up with an approach to solve it, show that it could work, and finally implement it in matlab2009-11-28 20:22:11
<schnaader> Sounds heavy indeed :)2009-11-28 20:22:14
<Krugz> anyways... back to work :P2009-11-28 20:23:02
<schnaader> Good luck - again :)2009-11-28 20:23:18
<Krugz> brb gonna grab some stuff to help me2009-11-28 20:23:18
<schnaader> OK2009-11-28 20:23:29
*** matt_ has left the channel2009-11-28 20:27:02
<Krugz> the professor's said, "I could spends weeks programming to save myself a few hours of reading.", to make fun of the way students nowadays don't want to read even if it means doing more work. So, looks like I'm gonna sit and read the manual for a while2009-11-28 20:43:14
<schnaader> Yes, this is a quite useful advice, although it shouldn't stop people from programming anyways :)2009-11-28 20:47:35
*** pinc has joined the channel2009-11-28 20:48:16
<Krugz> well he was just saying that because a lot of students were complaining about his assignments, without ever trying to read any of the lecture material2009-11-28 20:48:18
 so his argument was that people were trying to program without reading and it was going to take forever2009-11-28 20:48:35
<schnaader> Ah, I see.2009-11-28 20:49:02
<Krugz> I need to find somewhere more comfortable to sit and read, I'll be back later, bye2009-11-28 20:51:10
<schnaader> :) bye2009-11-28 20:51:47
*** pinc has left the channel2009-11-28 21:38:34
 Ah, you're back again - have you been successful?2009-11-28 22:17:29
<Krugz> had to help clean up tree poop (leaves)2009-11-28 22:18:40
<schnaader> XD nice term :)2009-11-28 22:18:59
<Krugz> that's how I see it2009-11-28 22:19:08
<schnaader> I've been quite successful in starting another Nethack game - I'm at level 12 now having an AC of -22 :)2009-11-28 22:21:26
<Krugz> lol2009-11-28 22:22:13
 um I probably only played about a week, inconsistently2009-11-28 22:22:30
 so I don't think I got much further then level 9~102009-11-28 22:22:49
<schnaader> Yes, I had those times, too, but then I decided to actually try to play and win that game - so I started playing more often. Still not getting anywhere to win it, but getting better and better :)2009-11-28 22:24:52
<Krugz> eh I have people bugging me to play other games with them so2009-11-28 22:27:25
 I tend to focus on those2009-11-28 22:27:29
<schnaader> Hehe, have that too, also made the mistake to start WoW two months ago, this game is sooo addicting ;)2009-11-28 22:28:16
<Krugz> meh2009-11-28 22:30:23
 I played WoW for about a year2009-11-28 22:30:27
 beat just about everything, then Wotlk came out, and i beat everything there within a week, so I got bored and dropped the game2009-11-28 22:30:44
<schnaader> Yeah, guess this will be the same for me, too. You're getting too good in this game too fast - it's just the opposite of Nethack :D2009-11-28 22:32:29
<Krugz> eh well2009-11-28 22:33:08
 WoW is fairly easy2009-11-28 22:33:16
 and then they noobs complained and whined forever2009-11-28 22:33:28
 and they made it easier2009-11-28 22:33:31
 so more noobs showed up, who were even worse and they complained...2009-11-28 22:33:43
 so now basically I could sleep walk to lv 80 and then solo most of the game2009-11-28 22:33:56
<schnaader> :)2009-11-28 22:34:51
<Krugz> it's kinda sad actually, but oh well2009-11-28 22:35:42
 I didn't ever really like WoW much anyways2009-11-28 22:35:52
 I played because people in my area played2009-11-28 22:35:59
 but they're all ADD-prone, so they get distracted and switch games every 5-10 minutes2009-11-28 22:36:20
 meaning I was the only one actually playing most of the time, most of my experience playing with them was helping them catch up to me, which most of them never did -.-2009-11-28 22:36:47
<schnaader> Yes, playing with other people this is one of the main things that can make this game entertaining (or stop it being like in your case).2009-11-28 22:38:48
<Krugz> ya2009-11-28 22:39:20
 well MM in MMO isn't really meaningful if you play alone2009-11-28 22:39:33
<schnaader> It's getting better - I'm at dungeon level 25 now and below that is the level I have to get to to get the tournament trophy I want :)2009-11-28 23:16:33
<Krugz> have you ever heard of a mote?2009-11-28 23:18:44
<schnaader> Doesn't ring any bell, no...2009-11-28 23:19:13
<Krugz> it's an interesting bit of technology, still pretty new2009-11-28 23:19:28
 http://computer.howstuffworks.com/mote.htm/printable2009-11-28 23:19:42
<schnaader> Ah, I've heard of smart dust before, but just know the term, haven't read anything about it.2009-11-28 23:20:30
* Krugz nods2009-11-28 23:21:06
 I always wish I had more knowledge in electronics - you can do pretty nice stuff with embedded systems and alike.2009-11-28 23:26:52
<Krugz> ya2009-11-28 23:27:41
 I'm doing some stuff with embedded systems right now2009-11-28 23:27:55
 it's not as bad as I thought it would be tbh2009-11-28 23:28:00
<schnaader> Why did you think it was bad? Too hard or not powerful enough?2009-11-28 23:29:11
<Krugz> I thought it'd be a lot more complicated2009-11-28 23:29:24
 not that it's always easy, I mean I've only worked with very simple chips but2009-11-28 23:29:45
 it's seems reasonable2009-11-28 23:29:57
 it*2009-11-28 23:30:00
<schnaader> Yes, I also heard that with the right toolkit, it's only putting the whole thing together and you can start working with it right away.2009-11-28 23:30:54
<Krugz> ya basically2009-11-28 23:32:09
<schnaader> Sounds very interesting, would like to do something like this, too.2009-11-28 23:35:04
<Krugz> do you know anything about Soft Subs in video?2009-11-28 23:35:33
 someone is asking some stuff but I can't really help them2009-11-28 23:35:41
 it's relatively easy2009-11-28 23:36:08
 http://www.sparkfun.com/commerce/product_info.php?products_id=2122009-11-28 23:36:10
 and cheap2009-11-28 23:36:14
<schnaader> Well, basically it should be about creating a file like SRT, SUB or something else and give it the same name as the video file, or do you only talk about using a Subs file?2009-11-28 23:36:34
<Krugz> "we're trying to like get MKV Soft Subs with video encoded together.... convert it to avi and play it on Wii"2009-11-28 23:37:28
 that's what they told me2009-11-28 23:37:43
 they're trying to encode softsubs with Super Media Converter2009-11-28 23:38:01
 and they aren't sure if it's possible2009-11-28 23:38:07
<schnaader> OK, this sounds like a bit of more work as I'm able to - especially the "play it on Wii" part should be very hard and I have no idea how to do that.2009-11-28 23:38:23
<Krugz> http://www.evilmadscientist.com/article.php/card2313 <--- board we used with that ^ chip up there2009-11-28 23:38:25
 well2009-11-28 23:38:32
 I think getting it into AVI format is all he needs2009-11-28 23:38:39
 with the subs still intact2009-11-28 23:38:48
 I'm sure Wii just natively supports AVI or something like that, probably why they are aiming for it2009-11-28 23:39:03
<schnaader> Hmm... have they tried VirtualDub for converting the video? If it can read the format, it should be easy to convert it to avi.2009-11-28 23:39:47
<Krugz> will it keep the subs though?2009-11-28 23:40:47
 if they're soft, not hard subs2009-11-28 23:41:01
<schnaader> Hmm.. I guess it won't keep them, but if they are soft subs, they should be able to extract them out of the container somehow.2009-11-28 23:41:43
 And I'm not sure if the Wii will support Soft Subs...2009-11-28 23:42:00
<Krugz> I think that's the point2009-11-28 23:42:07
 they want to encode the soft subs into the video, to make them hard subs2009-11-28 23:42:20
 and then convert the video with the hard subs into AVI2009-11-28 23:42:30
 http://www.d-addicts.com/forum/viewtopic_37663.htm 2009-11-28 23:43:34
 I think that's it2009-11-28 23:43:36
<schnaader> Hmm.. VirtualDub doesn't seem to support Subtitle/text filters, that would have been what I've tried. It could be possible with VirtualDubMod, but I'm pretty out of knowledge now :)2009-11-28 23:44:43
 Ah, this forum entry seems useful, yes.2009-11-28 23:46:25
<Krugz> :P2009-11-28 23:48:14
<schnaader> Is this the entry of the people that need help?2009-11-28 23:48:50
<Krugz> no2009-11-28 23:51:57
 it's something I just found to try to help them2009-11-28 23:52:05
 btw.. this video is really interesting: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=4Q75KhAeqJg&NR=12009-11-28 23:52:14
<schnaader> Yeah, so I got it right. Just wondered :)2009-11-28 23:52:19
 Hehe - yes I'm also quite fascinated by the technology evolving. If you think about what you can do with modern PCs, how much possibilities they offer you and how quick it gets even better than this...2009-11-28 23:59:02
<Krugz> ya but I wonder what'll happen to the US, we really do seem like we're falling behind in almost everything nowadays2009-11-29 00:00:42
 except for spending, probably :P2009-11-29 00:01:04
<schnaader> Hmm.. don't know.. as long as the chinese or indians won't take over the world and kill everybody, it's not that bad :)2009-11-29 00:03:02
 Now I can't get "Right here, right now" out of my head :D2009-11-29 00:04:31
<Krugz> lol2009-11-29 00:07:29
<schnaader> I mean if open source trends continue, it won't matter - everybody will be working together on solving worldwide problems...2009-11-29 00:08:39
 But of course that isn't sure and worrying about what could happen is reasonable.2009-11-29 00:09:23
<Krugz> My cynical/pessimistic side says whenever large groups of people work together, the larger faction always presumes it should gain more then the small faction, it'll never be equal2009-11-29 00:11:08
 as long as there are nations, seeing another nation grow powerful is scary2009-11-29 00:11:22
<schnaader> That's true.2009-11-29 00:12:26
 Yay, I've even defeated Vlad the Impaler in my current Nethack game, so I'll get an even better trophy :)2009-11-29 00:25:54
 Dungeon level 42 now O_o2009-11-29 00:31:07
<Krugz> that was fast2009-11-29 00:33:19
<schnaader> Well, I've been lucky :) I played the whole month in this tournament and I never got past lvl 16 or so :)2009-11-29 00:35:02
 This character would even have a chance to win the game.... if someone more skilled would play it :D2009-11-29 00:35:59
<Krugz> lol pff2009-11-29 00:36:40
<schnaader> Gremlins everywhere... I hate it when they come in contact with water ;)2009-11-29 00:52:59
<Krugz> O.o2009-11-29 00:53:58
<schnaader> Gonna wake the Wizard of Yendor up now! Hope I get the Book of the Dead from him, that would perhaps get me another trophy :)2009-11-29 00:54:17
<Krugz> @.@ too far ahead for me, I never even made it to questing lol2009-11-29 00:54:44
<schnaader> Here's what my stethoscope says about the Wizard: Status of the Wizard of Yendor (chaotic): Level 30 HP 108(125) AC -8, invisible2009-11-29 00:55:37
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 Yay, I have the Book of the Dead :)2009-11-29 00:56:22
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 Connection refused? ;)2009-11-29 00:57:30
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 775375 schnaader-Val-Hum-Fem-Neu turned to stone in Gehennom on level 46. Petrified by a cockatrice corpse. 154 [154]2009-11-29 01:03:19
<Krugz> lol2009-11-29 01:03:31
<schnaader> Well, at least I killed the Wizard of Yendor twice and got the Book of the Dead :)2009-11-29 01:03:47
<Krugz> :P 2009-11-29 01:03:53
<schnaader> Now I'm content :)2009-11-29 01:04:14
 And I see ASCII characters everywhere :P2009-11-29 01:05:43
<Krugz> lol2009-11-29 01:06:27
 I use the GUI, I'm a cheater2009-11-29 01:06:33
<schnaader> Yes, I use the GUI too normally (although I don't consider this cheating as it doesn't help so much), but telnet/ssh on the tournament servers doesn't support that.2009-11-29 01:07:35
<Krugz> ya2009-11-29 01:07:50
<schnaader> Hehe, now I can use this image: http://nethack.devnull.net/graphics/2009/TheSteelStar_Large.png2009-11-29 01:09:55
 Have to eat something now - these nethack games are quite exhausting :)2009-11-29 01:11:48
<Krugz> lol 2009-11-29 01:12:14
<schnaader_afk_yummy> I knew there was something wrong with the spelling :)2009-11-29 01:15:57
<Krugz> lol2009-11-29 01:16:59
 nah I just assumed you were jummy :D2009-11-29 01:17:05
<schnaader_afk_yummy> lol didn't know that word existed :) Seems to be a slang word, is it?2009-11-29 01:18:53
<Krugz> sure... it means to be very jum2009-11-29 01:19:26
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<schnaader_afk_yummy> lol http://www.urbandictionary.com/define.php?term=jummy - "An Asian man on a jetski" XD2009-11-29 01:21:09
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<Krugz> lololol2009-11-29 01:22:20
 I've never even heard of that2009-11-29 01:22:24
 welcome back2009-11-29 01:44:53
 little late ;P2009-11-29 01:44:59
<schnaader> Hehe, well I'm still eating what I've cooked, so it's not too late :)2009-11-29 01:45:55
 Just having a look at the Edsac PDF - this is very interesting, though I still try to understand how the Squares program works :)2009-11-29 01:48:17
<Krugz> I think I've given up lol2009-11-29 01:49:20
 it's too painful and I'm too distracted2009-11-29 01:49:31
<schnaader> Yes, I can understand this... You'll just lose some points on your homework, won't you? Or do you want to retry this later?2009-11-29 01:50:30
<Krugz> ah sorry2009-11-29 02:50:31
 um I'll have another chance 2009-11-29 02:50:39
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 wb?2009-11-29 03:26:12
 I'll be back later, bye2009-11-29 03:35:55
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<sami> hi!2009-11-29 10:55:36
 I added a very small update to the bwt page, a table listing approx mem use for each compressor2009-11-29 10:59:04
 I'm taking this day to add something to comp.ratings. I'm currently running book1 benchmark to all compressors. I intend to add a new special test that has several known test files (tested separately of course)2009-11-29 11:02:45
<pinc> thanks for your efforts2009-11-29 11:10:39
<Shelwien> hi sami2009-11-29 11:10:59
<sami> any test files that you would like to see included? I was thinking maybe couple of calgary corpus files (obj2, geo, book1) and perhaps some max.comp files? I'm not adding rafale or world952009-11-29 11:12:57
 and probably not the dll if I add the acrord322009-11-29 11:13:28
<Shelwien> there's my test corpus if you need any (two actually)2009-11-29 11:13:31
<sami> yeah, I'm looking for small files, since all compressors will be tested (paqs included)2009-11-29 11:14:03
<pinc> enwik6?2009-11-29 11:14:26
<Shelwien> i mean this http://www.ctxmodel.net/sh_samples_1.rar2009-11-29 11:14:58
<sami> yeah, perhaps enwik6 is good as well2009-11-29 11:14:59
 Shelwien, but I'm trying to find known test files2009-11-29 11:15:14
<Shelwien> these are a little known already2009-11-29 11:15:33
 there're a few people in the forum who use them2009-11-29 11:15:43
<sami> I'm trying to specifically address the people who have used to read simple tests that benchmark a single file and list the results. this new test will not have ratings2009-11-29 11:16:22
<Shelwien> well, i'll post a file description in a minute2009-11-29 11:17:04
<sami> Shelwien, ok I'm downloading, although I recall seeing that package already2009-11-29 11:17:06
<Shelwien> sure ;)2009-11-29 11:17:14
<sami> ok2009-11-29 11:17:14
<Shelwien> anyway, it contains a (kinda finnish) dictionary (permutated wordlist for password cracking actually)2009-11-29 11:17:53
<sami> oh forgot one thing, I'm planning to add lena, probably using bmp or ppm2009-11-29 11:17:54
<Shelwien> and cygwin /bin and /lib in tared files2009-11-29 11:18:27
 bookstar 35594240 russian SF books in plaintext from lib.ru2009-11-29 11:18:32
 cyg_bin 52459520 tar archive of /cygwin/bin2009-11-29 11:18:32
 cyg_lib 95436800 tar archive of /cygwin/lib2009-11-29 11:18:32
 enwik8 100000000 enwik82009-11-29 11:18:32
 finn_lst 31851425 a finnish dictionary for password cracker2009-11-29 11:18:32
 gits2op_mkv 64368429 GITS2 OP (NTV 1024x576 x264 24f AAC 5.1ch).mkv2009-11-29 11:18:33
 <total> 3797104142009-11-29 11:18:35
 and russian text which is an important example of non-english texts ;)2009-11-29 11:18:51
<sami> ok now I recall this package. in fact I have it already in my test file directory under shelwien1\*2009-11-29 11:19:04
<Shelwien> %)2009-11-29 11:19:16
<sami> if I add non-english test file I think it's better to take it as far as possible. it appears gutenberg has only a single book in sanskrit. do you know any sanskrit book that we could use?2009-11-29 11:23:31
 "The 1000 Names Of Lord Vishnu" :-)2009-11-29 11:24:03
<Shelwien> we can find some content probably, but i doubt there'd be enough2009-11-29 11:24:10
 and anyway, nobody would need to compress sanskrit2009-11-29 11:24:34
 if anything, i'd suggest dna sequences2009-11-29 11:24:53
<sami> the intention with russian text is to have something obscure, but I expect several compressors might be tuned to russian2009-11-29 11:25:24
<Shelwien> like 3-5 maybe2009-11-29 11:25:57
 i can also suggest japanese2009-11-29 11:26:14
 as i can collect enough content for it, both OCRed and in jpegs2009-11-29 11:26:46
 but that would be problematic considering copyrights2009-11-29 11:27:18
 while my bookstar is certainly legal2009-11-29 11:27:30
<sami> bhagavad gita etc are here http://sacred-texts.com/hin/index.htm but not in plain text format I see2009-11-29 11:28:05
<Shelwien> in that sense2009-11-29 11:28:12
 there's probably wiki dumps for different languages too2009-11-29 11:28:29
 *there're2009-11-29 11:28:36
<sami> I could add finnish for obscurity, but probably that would be interpreted as bias2009-11-29 11:30:45
<Shelwien> well, i think that'd be ok2009-11-29 11:31:25
 unless you'd also add a special filter for finnish ;)2009-11-29 11:31:51
<sami> btw have you seen this. 2253 word-forms for the finnish noun 'shop' http://www.ling.helsinki.fi/~fkarlsso/genkau2.html2009-11-29 11:35:28
* Shelwien goes to buy a suggested book2009-11-29 11:36:38
 finnish would certainly be filter resistant to a some degree2009-11-29 11:37:33
<Shelwien> still, i think stuff like chinese/japanese might be more important2009-11-29 11:38:12
 as it also has multibyte letters2009-11-29 11:38:32
<sami> yes, some large alphabet language file would be interesting as well I guess2009-11-29 11:42:24
<Shelwien> http://download.wikimedia.org/zhwiki/20091123/2009-11-29 11:51:46
<sami> but is that in simplified chinese?2009-11-29 11:54:47
<Shelwien> there're other dumps too2009-11-29 11:55:06
 also i'd suggest http://devel.ush.it/devel/web-databank/2009-11-29 11:55:13
<sami> is that eur/usd history?2009-11-29 11:56:02
<Shelwien> that too2009-11-29 11:56:15
 the point is that there're lots of data in binary tables (with ieee doubles afair)2009-11-29 11:56:42
<sami> do you have sp500 or oil?2009-11-29 11:56:44
<Shelwien> sp500 i've seen somewhere, but not atm, and didn't see oil2009-11-29 11:57:15
 the original source is http://www.alpari.co.uk/en/dc/databank.html btw2009-11-29 11:58:24
 but apparently traffic volume became too large and they took it down2009-11-29 11:58:50
<sami> the eurusd data has ticker symbol for ascii tables for each line. the xpo data is weird, some file references in the header etc2009-11-29 11:59:35
<Shelwien> well, i only have a local copy of alpari data from 21.02.092009-11-29 12:00:11
 00000000: 90 01 00 00 43 6F 70 79 ¦ 72 69 67 68 74 20 A9 20 ÐO Copyright é2009-11-29 12:00:29
 00000010: 32 30 30 35 2C 20 41 6C ¦ 70 61 72 69 20 4C 74 64 2005, Alpari Ltd2009-11-29 12:00:30
 00000020: 2E 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 ¦ 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 .2009-11-29 12:00:30
 00000030: 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 ¦ 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 002009-11-29 12:00:30
 00000040: 00 00 00 00 41 55 44 55 ¦ 53 44 00 00 00 00 00 00 AUDUSD2009-11-29 12:00:30
 00000050: A0 05 00 00 04 00 00 00 ¦ 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 ঠ¦2009-11-29 12:00:30
 00000060: 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 ¦ 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 002009-11-29 12:00:32
 00000070: 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 ¦ 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 002009-11-29 12:00:34
 00000080: 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 ¦ 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 002009-11-29 12:00:37
 00000090: 00 00 00 00 80 54 CD 12 ¦ 00 00 00 00 C1 B9 F1 3F ÀT=¦ +¦¸?2009-11-29 12:00:38
 000000A0: 00 00 00 A0 67 B3 F1 3F ¦ 00 00 00 20 83 C0 F1 3F àg¦¸? ÃL¸?2009-11-29 12:00:40
 000000B0: 00 00 00 00 C1 B9 F1 3F ¦ 00 00 00 00 00 00 F0 3F +¦¸? ¨?2009-11-29 12:00:42
 000000C0: 00 A6 CE 12 00 00 00 60 ¦ 17 B7 F1 3F 00 00 00 60 æ+¦ `¦¬¸? `2009-11-29 12:00:44
 000000D0: 17 B7 F1 3F 00 00 00 60 ¦ 17 B7 F1 3F 00 00 00 60 ¦¬¸? `¦¬¸? `2009-11-29 12:00:46
<sami> I think there was something called "opentick" but it got shut down earlier this year. it was free api and server for real time stock data. I once tried to retrieve historical data there but the api didn't seem simple enough for me and I didn't want to spent time learning it2009-11-29 12:01:34
<Shelwien> you can get some quotes from yahoo finance2009-11-29 12:02:00
<sami> yes, but problem with the daily quotes is that there just isn't enough data for benchmark2009-11-29 12:02:31
<Shelwien> there're historical data too2009-11-29 12:02:42
 its just very annoying to fetch them2009-11-29 12:02:51
<sami> right, I mean even with multi year historical data daily quotes2009-11-29 12:03:08
 probably 100 years of sp500 would be only 200k or something2009-11-29 12:03:46
 with open,close,low,hi,vol2009-11-29 12:04:04
<Shelwien> there should be more than daily quotes somewhere2009-11-29 12:04:19
<sami> I think the most interesting would be an ultra high resolution intra day data2009-11-29 12:04:57
<Shelwien> well, there's a minute data in these alpari forex files2009-11-29 12:05:31
 i have 183M zipped for multiple currencies2009-11-29 12:05:48
<sami> then it appears I downloaded wrong samples, all I got was daily quotes2009-11-29 12:06:28
<Shelwien> ftp://ftp.ddbj.nig.ac.jp/ddbj_database/genomes/Viruses/Influenza/Influenza_A_virus.ff.gz2009-11-29 12:06:57
 err... well, i can upload my copy2009-11-29 12:07:51
<sami> so were you talking about these files that you gave link to? I mean the minute data?2009-11-29 12:08:28
 eur/usd2009-11-29 12:08:42
<Shelwien> sure2009-11-29 12:08:52
 65.8M unpacked for eur/usd2009-11-29 12:09:10
<sami> ok, sorry, I was blind2009-11-29 12:09:48
<Shelwien> you mean D1 instead of M1? ;)2009-11-29 12:10:26
<sami> so have you tried building model for the currency data? :-)2009-11-29 12:10:26
 yes :-)2009-11-29 12:10:30
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<Shelwien> not yet, but i did something fairly similar before2009-11-29 12:11:02
 i mean my model for calgary/geo data2009-11-29 12:11:23
 the same approach should be applicable2009-11-29 12:11:38
<chornobl> talking about lena - i'd like to see it raw rgb or tga, but not bmp2009-11-29 12:11:50
<Shelwien> and all the other stuff is a matter of context choice etc2009-11-29 12:11:51
<sami> right but that doesn't count as similar for me, stock market data is special2009-11-29 12:11:55
<Shelwien> i know2009-11-29 12:12:14
 they have some "resonance" effects from traders trying to follow some "strategy"2009-11-29 12:12:46
<sami> right2009-11-29 12:13:00
<Shelwien> but still that's not the problem really imho2009-11-29 12:13:24
<sami> and technical analysis, I don't know how much volume that makes, but if there is enough volume, one can certainly model that stragegy easily2009-11-29 12:13:45
<Shelwien> there're issues with other things2009-11-29 12:13:58
 like, prediction model is one thing2009-11-29 12:14:10
 and profit model is a completely different thing2009-11-29 12:14:17
<sami> well, not completely2009-11-29 12:14:35
<Shelwien> i mean, first you get probability distributions for numbers2009-11-29 12:15:19
 and then you have to minimize the profit likelihoods2009-11-29 12:15:43
 which is a damned bruteforce task basically2009-11-29 12:16:03
 so i'd better write a jpeg recompressor first2009-11-29 12:16:21
<sami> :-)2009-11-29 12:16:31
<Shelwien> (there's some similarity)2009-11-29 12:16:32
 also i recently found (with bit_guess) that precision of practical models is not as good as i expected2009-11-29 12:17:54
 ideally there should be no difference2009-11-29 12:18:25
 whether i optimize by entropy2009-11-29 12:18:35
 or by some specific "profit" metric2009-11-29 12:18:47
 (number of guessed bits in bit_guess)2009-11-29 12:18:55
 but due to imprecise calculations and lack of submodels to cover _all_ data2009-11-29 12:20:01
 i found that there's a significant difference in results2009-11-29 12:20:19
 depending on optimization metric2009-11-29 12:20:25
 well, that doesn't really break my idea to apply entropy models everywhere2009-11-29 12:21:05
 but it certainly requires some caution2009-11-29 12:21:22
 sami: btw, http://encode.dreamhosters.com/showpost.php?p=10164&postcount=162009-11-29 12:38:26
<sami> I plowed through very quickly. something about p2p protocol that would cache random stuff to clients? I'm not very excited about that. private networks seems more reasonable2009-11-29 12:52:02
<Shelwien> not that actually2009-11-29 12:52:19
 but anchored hashes ;)2009-11-29 12:52:26
 +recompression2009-11-29 12:52:49
<sami> p2p to util anchored hashes to search everywhere? ok, but I'm not sure would I like the p2p program to churn the entire hd to build hashes from everything. if user limits it to certain files there will not be much material. nevertheless the idea makes sense basically2009-11-29 13:03:59
<Shelwien> of course nobody in their right mind would allow p2p to scan whole drive2009-11-29 13:05:26
 some trojans install p2p in such a way though2009-11-29 13:05:42
 but its still could be very useful, especially along with recompression2009-11-29 13:06:17
<sami> right, but I was pointing out that the user will limit it to just couple of files in her download folder2009-11-29 13:06:27
<Shelwien> that's still better than nothing2009-11-29 13:06:41
 stuff frequently happens with torrents etc2009-11-29 13:06:55
 like people reposting slightly modified versions of stuff etc2009-11-29 13:07:11
 and hashing schemes used in all current p2p2009-11-29 13:07:38
 can't really handle that2009-11-29 13:07:54
 in fact, they don't even see when a block hash matches in two files downloaded at once2009-11-29 13:08:53
<sami> to my understanding people post torrents that are already posted with perhaps some couple of spam files added. we don't need better hashing to fix this2009-11-29 13:09:06
 we need reasonable indexing services that solve this2009-11-29 13:09:27
<Shelwien> we need anchored hashing to fix that, there's no other way2009-11-29 13:09:38
 the current scheme with fixed block hashes just doesn't allow to track moved content2009-11-29 13:10:16
 and even adding a comment to zip archive might result in a completely different torrent file2009-11-29 13:11:05
<sami> yes I know, but I guess movies and music are really that is being the thing in p2p. id3 tags not considered, there isn't much that is changing the file signature2009-11-29 13:12:55
<Shelwien> yeah, and that's very important for movies2009-11-29 13:13:54
<sami> as said I think your idea makes sense, but I'm just saying in reality it will not get utilized much2009-11-29 13:14:02
<Shelwien> there're lots of video files2009-11-29 13:14:10
 remuxed into a different format (avi->mkv etc)2009-11-29 13:14:21
 and/or with added subtitles etc2009-11-29 13:14:29
 or audio tracks2009-11-29 13:14:32
 anyway, lots of matching, but interleaved, data inside2009-11-29 13:14:49
<sami> subtitles are usually separate files, they change torrent signature but not the file signature, this is why I would like the problem to be fixed with indexing service2009-11-29 13:15:20
<chornobl> most annoying is that even name change makes torrent differs2009-11-29 13:15:48
<Shelwien> well, that depends on genre maybe2009-11-29 13:16:12
<sami> torrent is in many ways flawed, but it could be fixed2009-11-29 13:16:17
<Shelwien> i encounter many rips in mkv with embedded subs/fonts2009-11-29 13:16:54
 and also some people frequently post various v2 etc2009-11-29 13:17:16
<sami> movies should not even contain multiple audio tracks2009-11-29 13:17:17
<Shelwien> err... why?2009-11-29 13:17:32
 that happens frequently too2009-11-29 13:17:50
<sami> perhaps to some pixar animations for kids but basically I just don't understand why dubs are still used when people are literate2009-11-29 13:18:24
<Shelwien> well, i don't either2009-11-29 13:18:47
 but there're bilingual US dvds 2009-11-29 13:19:03
 and corresponding rips2009-11-29 13:19:10
 and also, don't forget about warez ;)2009-11-29 13:19:32
<sami> I know it's common in some european countries, perhaps in russia too? US is a special case, they make the entire movie again with their own actors speaking in fake accent, that's even more bizarre than dubbing with 2 bad actors2009-11-29 13:19:44
<Shelwien> and imagine just number of different windows releases2009-11-29 13:20:06
 all with mostly the same content inside2009-11-29 13:20:14
 ;)2009-11-29 13:20:38
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 hi FuSiyuan2009-11-29 13:51:56
<FuSiyuan> Hi! Shelwien2009-11-29 13:53:09
<Shelwien> if you don't talk, i usually won't notice even if i'm around ;)2009-11-29 13:54:11
<FuSiyuan> I'm happy to share you a good message of mine that I got a job :)2009-11-29 13:54:38
 Around days.2009-11-29 13:54:55
<Shelwien> cool2009-11-29 13:54:59
 so you won't have any time anymore? ;)2009-11-29 13:55:09
<FuSiyuan> Yes for these days. Because I must try my best to adapt the company environment. I'm such a novice and have much to learn2009-11-29 13:56:36
 I got it in Campus Recruiting so I gave up applying abroad2009-11-29 13:57:18
 But I'm sure I won't leave forever2009-11-29 13:58:43
<Shelwien> and what's the job?2009-11-29 13:58:53
<FuSiyuan> Do you know Xunlei? or Thunder ?2009-11-29 13:59:05
<Shelwien> no2009-11-29 13:59:14
<FuSiyuan> A software used for download2009-11-29 13:59:26
<Shelwien> plain http/ftp file downloader?2009-11-29 13:59:47
<FuSiyuan> More than that. 2009-11-29 14:00:03
<Shelwien> http://translate.google.com/translate?u=http://cap-cap.ru/?page=news/index.html&langpair=ru%7Cen&hl=en&newwindow=1&ie=UTF-8&oe=UTF-8&prev=%2Flanguage_tools ?2009-11-29 14:00:19
<FuSiyuan> Combined with P2P ,like BT/eMule2009-11-29 14:00:52
<Shelwien> ah, ok2009-11-29 14:01:13
 and what you can write for these? new protocols?2009-11-29 14:01:56
<FuSiyuan> However, I'm not in the team. The company is also concerning on online video. I'm going to work about this.2009-11-29 14:02:47
<Shelwien> %)2009-11-29 14:03:00
 youtube etc ripping?2009-11-29 14:03:19
<FuSiyuan> Apache + MySQL C++ cgi these are the keywords~2009-11-29 14:03:27
 Not completely the same. More about online movies2009-11-29 14:04:02
 Rmvb is most widely used in china.2009-11-29 14:04:22
<Shelwien> yeah, i encounter it sometimes2009-11-29 14:04:33
<FuSiyuan>  People used to search and download movies in rmvb format.2009-11-29 14:04:52
 So it's much more convenient to watch the movie online.2009-11-29 14:05:32
<Shelwien> well, to me its not convenient at all ;)2009-11-29 14:06:01
 but i understand what you mean ;)2009-11-29 14:06:11
<FuSiyuan> :) What's your way to watch movies?2009-11-29 14:06:39
 I mean not in cinema.2009-11-29 14:06:51
<Shelwien> i use mpc under winXP2009-11-29 14:07:25
 plays rmvb and whatnot with proper directshow filters2009-11-29 14:07:57
 even flash2009-11-29 14:08:07
<FuSiyuan> Media Player Classic?2009-11-29 14:08:19
<Shelwien> yeah2009-11-29 14:08:22
<FuSiyuan> You should download the rmvb first, don't you2009-11-29 14:08:49
<Shelwien> yeah, torrents2009-11-29 14:08:59
<FuSiyuan>  That's the difference. Torrents are only used by small group of people here.2009-11-29 14:09:56
<Shelwien> huh...2009-11-29 14:10:46
 http://isohunt.com/2009-11-29 14:11:10
<FuSiyuan> To guarantee millions of people watch the movies fluently online is a challenge work.2009-11-29 14:11:11
<Shelwien> sure2009-11-29 14:11:28
 i actually have to maintain some audio caster solution2009-11-29 14:11:58
 for our codec2009-11-29 14:12:09
 i'd say for millions of people apache+cgi (which i use too) won't be enough2009-11-29 14:12:33
<FuSiyuan> what's audio caster? about SoundSlimmer?2009-11-29 14:12:44
<Shelwien> no2009-11-29 14:12:49
 like internet radio etc2009-11-29 14:13:06
<FuSiyuan> oh2009-11-29 14:13:16
<Shelwien> basically the same thing like yours, but no video (yet?)2009-11-29 14:13:25
<FuSiyuan> I'm sure very few people in China are interested in online audio ;)2009-11-29 14:14:03
 radio2009-11-29 14:14:09
<Shelwien> huh... actually our current investors are chinese2009-11-29 14:14:56
<FuSiyuan> ,,,,,,2009-11-29 14:15:10
<Shelwien> not like i care though2009-11-29 14:15:12
 but why not2009-11-29 14:16:26
 there's itunes etc2009-11-29 14:16:34
<FuSiyuan> why not about what>2009-11-29 14:16:54
<Shelwien> ?2009-11-29 14:17:07
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*** FuSiyuan has joined the channel2009-11-29 14:24:30
<FuSiyuan> I'm sorry. The net is too unstable in hotel2009-11-29 14:25:29
<Shelwien> %)2009-11-29 14:25:39
 did you see that btw? http://encode.dreamhosters.com/showpost.php?p=10164&postcount=162009-11-29 14:27:13
*** FuSiyuan has left the channel2009-11-29 14:31:38
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*** schnaader has joined the channel2009-11-29 15:09:18
 ...2009-11-29 15:09:48
<schnaader> hi @ all2009-11-29 15:10:47
<Shelwien> hi2009-11-29 15:10:52
<sami> hi2009-11-29 15:11:36
<Shelwien> schnaader: what do you think about adding recompression to p2p?2009-11-29 15:11:53
<schnaader> Hehe, actually I've got several plans for this :)2009-11-29 15:12:10
<Shelwien> like what?2009-11-29 15:13:20
<schnaader> The first thing I want to do if the next Precomp version is out (and I managed to release a Linux version), is to add Precomp-optimized (and only legal, of course) torrents to my site so for example those Linux distros are only 300-500 MB to download instead of 700 MB. That's only a basic thing and not really "adding recompression to P2P", but it's a nice start.2009-11-29 15:14:23
<Shelwien> sure2009-11-29 15:15:34
<schnaader> Next, I'm thinking about a Precomp Server/Client version. As a client, you could add URLs (perhaps this could also be a Firefox extension for more comfort) that would be send to the server(s) which send you the precompressed+compressed version. If several servers are available, or every Client has server abilities, this quickly gets P2P-like.2009-11-29 15:15:55
<Shelwien> but i talked about something more general, like ability to download parts for winxp_sp3.iso from a user who shares winxp_sp2.rar2009-11-29 15:16:25
<schnaader> Yeah, I've seen this in your post, this would be the last part of such a chain.2009-11-29 15:17:45
<Shelwien> well, otherwise, it sounds more like filehosting2009-11-29 15:18:08
<schnaader> Yes, the other things are basically advanced mirroring. OTOH, P2P also is some advanced filehosting technique ;)2009-11-29 15:18:48
<Shelwien> yeah, i've even seen some chinese filehosting site2009-11-29 15:19:11
 where you can download links from their site via http for money2009-11-29 15:19:33
 or by p2p with their client for free2009-11-29 15:19:43
 anyway, its surprising that there're no popular p2p software with good built-in compression2009-11-29 15:21:01
<schnaader> But I see your point, the problem with BitTorrent at the moment is that it doesn't check if someone has some of the parts for a download available in another form. It's understandable as without recompression or better (dynamic block) hash ways it won't find much matches.2009-11-29 15:21:04
 And it lacks built-in compression, yes.2009-11-29 15:21:30
<Shelwien> well, it could find a lot of matches even without recompression, actually2009-11-29 15:21:43
 "coincidentally", the fma-diff thing in topic here2009-11-29 15:23:23
 implements a hashing algorithm required for such flexible match finding2009-11-29 15:23:52
<schnaader> So, how does it basically work and what are its limitations?2009-11-29 15:26:28
<Shelwien> no real limitations that i'm aware of2009-11-29 15:27:22
<schnaader> I mean it won't find a byte of length X if X gets small enough, will it? Anyway, no need to find 1 byte matches :P2009-11-29 15:27:43
 Replace "byte of length" with "byte match of length" :)2009-11-29 15:28:12
<Shelwien> well, it uses 64bit hashes atm2009-11-29 15:28:22
 and overall 10-byte fragment records2009-11-29 15:28:36
 so no sense to set it to allow fragments shorter than 10 bytes, i guess ;)2009-11-29 15:28:55
 as to idea, i call it "anchored hashing"2009-11-29 15:29:12
 instead of fixed blocks, fragments are split by content2009-11-29 15:29:50
 it could be lines for text, or "."2009-11-29 15:31:33
 and it can be something like rolling_hash<limit for unknown data2009-11-29 15:32:17
 also i have min and max fragment size limits2009-11-29 15:32:41
<schnaader> Hmm.. I think I slowly get the idea. An request start could start at max fragment size and continue with a binary search until the biggest match is found.2009-11-29 15:33:14
<Shelwien> and the important addition, which i borrowed from MS backup service2009-11-29 15:33:42
 is secondary hashing2009-11-29 15:33:49
 meaning, that you can use anchored hashing with a relatively small avg fragment size (like 100 bytes)2009-11-29 15:34:28
 and then hash the hashtable2009-11-29 15:34:45
 !grep /fma2009-11-29 15:35:28
<schnaader> How is hashing the hashtable different than hashing all the 100 bytes blocks?2009-11-29 15:35:35
<chornobl> it it crazy?2009-11-29 15:35:58
<schnaader> Hmm.. complogger should perhaps first grep, collect and post afterwards :)2009-11-29 15:36:07
<Shelwien> so it does2009-11-29 15:36:18
 it only posts a limited number of matches2009-11-29 15:36:38
<schnaader> OK, then IRC is just too slow as I could post between it :)2009-11-29 15:36:42
<Shelwien> and a link with all2009-11-29 15:36:43
 that's an anti-spam feature2009-11-29 15:37:04
* Shelwien has to fix the url in the script2009-11-29 15:37:37
<schnaader> Ah, I see.2009-11-29 15:37:37
<Shelwien> and as to hashing the hashtable2009-11-29 15:38:03
 say, you have two files with mostly the same content2009-11-29 15:38:31
<schnaader> And looking at the 6 last matches, it should perhaps not log/grep the topic :)2009-11-29 15:38:37
<Shelwien> thus, fragment split points would be the same2009-11-29 15:38:56
 and fragment hashes2009-11-29 15:39:00
<schnaader> Yeah, like two MP3 files for example (damn those ID3 header differences :)2009-11-29 15:39:00
<Shelwien> so parts of two hashtables would be the same too2009-11-29 15:39:33
 but hashtable with avgmatch 100 would use 10% of file size2009-11-29 15:40:09
<schnaader> Ah, so we don't check the matches between the files, but between the hashtables heavily reducing the traffic, I see!2009-11-29 15:40:26
<Shelwien> yeah2009-11-29 15:40:33
 so the secondary hashtably would reduce it 10x more etc2009-11-29 15:40:50
 (MS doesn't limit the number of iterations ;)2009-11-29 15:41:07
 but then2009-11-29 15:41:25
 you'd be able for example to download a patch for the primary hash of file12009-11-29 15:42:04
 and thus acquire primary hash of remote file22009-11-29 15:42:18
 and it would be still possible to find a 100-byte fragment anywhere2009-11-29 15:42:55
<schnaader> Very good idea - so, where can I get the patch for utorrent? :P :P2009-11-29 15:43:19
<Shelwien> though, i guess, for p2p it could be set higher2009-11-29 15:43:29
 i'm using ~200 for my backup2009-11-29 15:43:35
 i don't think its compatible with torrent protocol really2009-11-29 15:44:02
<schnaader> Yes, I think something like 512 byte would be good, dependings on the specific packet overhead and such things.2009-11-29 15:44:05
<Shelwien> not really, as you can't have equal-sized fragments2009-11-29 15:44:28
 sizes would be all different2009-11-29 15:44:34
 or, more like, its better when they're all different2009-11-29 15:44:52
 (because otherwise it won't be content-specific)2009-11-29 15:45:45
 ...anyway, i'm working on a remote backup engine based on this idea2009-11-29 15:46:47
 which is not quite far from p2p as well2009-11-29 15:47:01
<schnaader> This is another good idea - you can see how it all works out with it and then predict how the P2P thing would work and which problems could be there.2009-11-29 15:47:43
<Shelwien> i don't really see any problems beside implementation complexity2009-11-29 15:48:24
<schnaader> Looking for matches would be a broadcast, wouldn't it? Because if you send requests to every connected client, this could get some serious overhead. 2009-11-29 15:48:41
<Shelwien> not really2009-11-29 15:48:52
 there're completely distributed p2p networks already (including DHT in edonkey and torrents)2009-11-29 15:49:17
 and they have search2009-11-29 15:49:31
<schnaader> OTOH, final hashtables will be relatively small and you won't get much traffic until you really get close to a match.2009-11-29 15:49:48
<Shelwien> for example, it can be done hierarchically2009-11-29 15:49:49
 yeah, also you don't really need to download a larger hashtable if you don't see matches2009-11-29 15:50:18
 well, one drawback is amount of hash etc processing and memory usage2009-11-29 15:51:14
 but we have enough now, i think2009-11-29 15:51:21
<schnaader> Yes, I think so too, I have to convert all those MP3s to OGGs to keep the CPU from being idle all the time ;)2009-11-29 15:52:36
<Shelwien> huh... i can give you some password hashes to crack ;)2009-11-29 15:53:28
 however, I guess, I'd have to implement a significantly different version of anchored hashing for 2D data2009-11-29 15:54:08
<schnaader> :)2009-11-29 15:54:08
<Shelwien> like images/video etc2009-11-29 15:54:19
 audio is not straightforward too, but it only requires some filtering to detect matches2009-11-29 15:55:05
<schnaader> There could be more things for this, f.e. you could create some hashes that generate the same/a similar value if the image is mirrored or scaled.2009-11-29 15:55:05
<Shelwien> yeah, i implied that2009-11-29 15:55:31
<schnaader> Ah, and you don't even need recompression for it, just a 7-Zip like decompression would help a lot already.2009-11-29 15:56:18
<Shelwien> not quite2009-11-29 15:56:39
 don't forget that i'd have to reconstruct the file which I'm downloading2009-11-29 15:56:54
<schnaader> Because in most cases you don't want to (remote test.rar -> local test.zip, but remote test.rar -> local part_of_test_rar.mp3)2009-11-29 15:57:24
<Shelwien> without that I may be able to even download all the data2009-11-29 15:57:25
 but starting a download of an archive an getting unpacked data instead (with some stuff missing maybe, like comments)2009-11-29 15:58:07
 isn't quite good2009-11-29 15:58:14
 and btw, recompression of anything (not like you do though) is not really a problem2009-11-29 15:59:03
 we just need to store additional information which would allow to reconstruct the original stream2009-11-29 15:59:49
 which is somewhat more redundant than bruteforcing the parameters of specific algorithm implementation, like you do2009-11-29 16:00:40
 and also slower in decoding2009-11-29 16:00:47
 but much more universal2009-11-29 16:00:56
<schnaader> Could you give an example here? It seems I can't really follow you there.2009-11-29 16:01:10
<Shelwien> well, say, we have a deflate stream, which decodes to some data2009-11-29 16:02:43
 there're some specific match structure in the unpacked data2009-11-29 16:03:21
 like, there might be a choice of a few different matches to encode at some points2009-11-29 16:03:55
 so, that's additional information which is present in the deflate stream2009-11-29 16:04:18
 but not in the unpacked data2009-11-29 16:04:23
 but even if we only know the stream format (deflate), and not the specific compression algorithm2009-11-29 16:05:26
 we would still be able to losslessly recompress it like i described above2009-11-29 16:05:55
 and produce unpacked data and info block for recompression on output2009-11-29 16:06:10
 also, that info block won't likely take too much, as even with an unknown algorithm a context model would compress it good enough2009-11-29 16:07:01
 and ideally you can even implement submodels which would predict that info based on compression strategy of specific deflate implementations2009-11-29 16:07:52
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<schnaader> I think I get it now - this would really be useful, yes.2009-11-29 16:08:01
<Shelwien> well, thats how soundslimmer works2009-11-29 16:08:18
 for example, there're 4-bit huffman table selectors in each mp3 frame2009-11-29 16:08:43
 but i find an optimal table for the actual DCT data2009-11-29 16:09:17
 and encode a flag predicted==stored2009-11-29 16:09:39
 which is efficient enough with arithmetic coding even if i always guess right2009-11-29 16:10:08
 the main problem in deflate case, though2009-11-29 16:10:24
 is that match searching would be requited in decoding stage (reconstruction of original file) too2009-11-29 16:11:14
 *required2009-11-29 16:11:20
 because it would be providing these "guesses" for the context model2009-11-29 16:12:00
 but instead, its universal2009-11-29 16:12:17
 ..and fortunately, deflate compression is not very time-consuming anyway2009-11-29 16:13:30
<schnaader> Not if you do it only once ;)2009-11-29 16:13:44
 Nice thoughts. Have you got some results yet (compared size of a backup with this and without)?2009-11-29 16:14:39
<Shelwien> well, i'd have to implement some deflate recompression for my backup engine sometime2009-11-29 16:14:56
 so will see2009-11-29 16:15:05
<schnaader> Although in a backup you won't of course get to see its full potential.2009-11-29 16:15:32
<Shelwien> not yet, alas, i'm slow ;)2009-11-29 16:15:39
 well, this backup is surprisingly very similar to archiver2009-11-29 16:16:07
<schnaader> It's not that frequent having slightyly different versions of your data spread all over your HD :)2009-11-29 16:16:11
 Slightyly... how cute :D2009-11-29 16:16:41
<Shelwien> basically it _is_ an archiver split into two parts for reading and writing2009-11-29 16:17:33
<schnaader> Well, sometimes one ain't too slow, but just have too much ideas so one doesn't know which one to implement first - at least that's the difficulty with Precomp at the moment :)2009-11-29 16:19:47
<Shelwien> well, i'm certainly too slow2009-11-29 16:20:22
<schnaader> OK, no more excuses for you, then ;)2009-11-29 16:20:59
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 Wow, it's getting crowded here - I can't understand my own word XD2009-11-29 16:21:43
<Shelwien> forum link + no new posts ;)2009-11-29 16:22:09
<schnaader> Actually, there was a post about Google Wave which could get an evil enemy to the IRC channel :)2009-11-29 16:22:46
<Shelwien> no way i'd use something without easily accessible logs ;)2009-11-29 16:23:50
<schnaader> Same for me, too, but tell this the Google kids :P2009-11-29 16:24:26
<Shelwien> its a conspiracy. they'd magically turn our computers into terminals, and we'd have no other choice then ;)2009-11-29 16:25:46
<schnaader> Hm.. just thinking if a (really complicated) version of that P2P technique could reconstruct MP3s based on another MP3 with a different (or best a higher) bitrate - I always hate to download CBR 320kbps and converting to VBR 128) - but I guess this wouldn't be easy to achieve lossless...2009-11-29 16:27:18
<Shelwien> i have a plan for jpeg recompression which would allow similar stuff2009-11-29 16:28:08
 (finding similar image fragments etc)2009-11-29 16:28:30
 but its likely too computationally-heavy to do for mp32009-11-29 16:28:55
 i mean, we need to decode PCM, and use CM to compress the DCT coefs using PCM as context2009-11-29 16:29:39
 ...guess that's exactly the stuff to use GPUs for2009-11-29 16:30:46
<schnaader> In this case, you'd go better with a recode server that provides lower bitrate version, yes.2009-11-29 16:30:46
 The only problem I see is that people seem to care less and less about compression - newest FreeBSD version f.e. (ftp://ftp.freebsd.org/pub/FreeBSD/releases/i386/ISO-IMAGES/8.0/) provides 2 downloads (bootonly and livefs) which can get compressed down to 17 MB (from 43) and 84 MB (from 250) even using THOR... and gZip http compression doesn't seem to help here :(2009-11-29 16:34:05
 But then again, the bigger versions are more efficient :)2009-11-29 16:35:14
<Shelwien> i've seen a local phone database on a DVD2009-11-29 16:36:25
 there were ~15M of actual data (compressed)2009-11-29 16:36:53
 and a 4G data.bin file with zeroes2009-11-29 16:37:19
 but yeah2009-11-29 16:38:37
 once upon a time i used my avipack to download videos reduced by 5-20%2009-11-29 16:39:04
 but it became too bothersome already when I've got 512kbit2009-11-29 16:39:30
<schnaader> Which actually isn't a bad thing ;) And there are still ways to fill even 1 PB and wanting better compression so it's only 750 TB :)2009-11-29 16:40:38
<Shelwien> yeah, with rainbow tables and digits of Pi2009-11-29 16:41:23
<schnaader> And of course having P2P with 3 MB/s instead of 1 MB/s because of compression would be nice, too ;)2009-11-29 16:41:41
<Shelwien> imho lack of seeders is much more important there2009-11-29 16:42:09
<schnaader> Well, not for most legal stuff ;) But I know what you mean, of course.2009-11-29 16:42:53
<Shelwien> zip and https for legal stuff2009-11-29 16:44:00
 by a random association here's something BWT-related: http://shelwien.googlepages.com/bzip-ipp1.png2009-11-29 16:49:12
<schnaader> 14 s is REALLY slow - how big is test.html?2009-11-29 16:51:32
<Shelwien> 1-2M2009-11-29 16:51:47
 bit its repeatable2009-11-29 16:51:59
 their previous version took 8s2009-11-29 16:52:20
<schnaader> Yeah, guessed so as you stated "redundant files"2009-11-29 16:52:22
<Shelwien> and i filed that issue2009-11-29 16:52:27
 and then they recently asked to check the new release2009-11-29 16:52:45
 which they supposedly rewritten from scratch or something2009-11-29 16:52:58
 guess it really helped ;)2009-11-29 16:53:04
 also notice "total days open" ;)2009-11-29 16:54:30
<schnaader> Yes, just saw that submit was last year :)2009-11-29 16:55:03
 So it seems they don't really care about their CPU cycles there ;)2009-11-29 16:55:31
<Shelwien> well, its a design error, so they probably just can't fix it2009-11-29 16:56:00
<sami> Shelwien what is that about? bzip2 written from screatch? is it open source and can you give me a link to it?2009-11-29 16:56:49
 scratch2009-11-29 16:56:56
<Shelwien> Intel has a product called "Intel Performance Primitives"2009-11-29 16:57:23
 and you can look at this: http://shelwien.googlepages.com/bzip-ipp1.png2009-11-29 16:58:11
 i mean, this: http://shelwien.googlepages.com/bzip2ipp_v0.rar2009-11-29 16:58:27
 (though its in the image too ;)2009-11-29 16:58:36
 they have it available for download (in IPP samples)2009-11-29 16:58:57
 but i'd have to click too much links for that ;)2009-11-29 16:59:15
 well, this http://registrationcenter.intel.com/irc_nas/1621/w_ipp-samples_p_6.1.2.051.zip2009-11-29 17:01:15
<schnaader> Is this just a test for their product, or are they trying to build a faster implementation of bZip2?2009-11-29 17:01:30
<Shelwien> but it probably requires whole IPP to compile2009-11-29 17:01:34
 well, they think that it _is_ a faster implementation2009-11-29 17:02:00
 they have zlib version too btw2009-11-29 17:02:05
 and it is actually a few times faster for now so redundant files2009-11-29 17:02:30
<schnaader> As you found those bugs, seems more like some trade-off for "usual files" :)2009-11-29 17:02:35
<Shelwien> well, my BWTmix takes like a minute for that file2009-11-29 17:03:07
 so its not only their problem ;)2009-11-29 17:03:11
<schnaader> Yes, redundancy is evil because you'll get to check so many matches... Had this problem once with an early compressor of mine and a file filled with 0 bytes - of course that's a trivial case you can fix very quick2009-11-29 17:04:27
<sami> ipp_bzlib.inc is not the full source, where is the sort function?2009-11-29 17:04:41
<Shelwien> guess no source then...2009-11-29 17:05:13
<sami> yea. the ippsBWTFwd_8u() function is missing2009-11-29 17:07:21
 I guess it's too embarrassing so they left it out2009-11-29 17:07:29
<Shelwien> http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Integrated_Performance_Primitives2009-11-29 17:09:49
<sami> Shelwien if you are interested in bwt sort test files, see the gauntlet corpus by michael2009-11-29 17:12:12
<Shelwien> hmm... maybe i would...2009-11-29 17:13:39
<sami> http://www.michael-maniscalco.com/msufsort.htm2009-11-29 17:14:16
<Shelwien> although usually I only mess with BWT because its postcoding doesn't require using hashes or anything for statistics2009-11-29 17:14:17
<sami> you can download the files there individually. it appears there is no single large zip package2009-11-29 17:16:16
<Shelwien> btw, considering that... I'd like to implement unary CM coder, probably as a BWT postcoder too2009-11-29 17:16:59
 well, similar to what PPMd does, for example2009-11-29 17:17:06
 but there's a problem... unary coding has a really bad worst case (255 bits per source byte)2009-11-29 17:17:50
<sami> right2009-11-29 17:18:19
<Shelwien> which is normally worked around by changing the symbol ranking according to circumstances2009-11-29 17:18:47
 but that only works right when simple frequencies are used, like in ppmd2009-11-29 17:19:25
 but if we'd have probabilities for symbols there2009-11-29 17:20:14
 it would require a division per rank change (and multiplications)2009-11-29 17:20:34
 and likely would introduce a noticeable imprecision too2009-11-29 17:21:01
 so its slow if we don't do any adaptive reordering2009-11-29 17:21:32
 and its slow if we do it for other reason2009-11-29 17:21:39
 and we can't compute and save a static ranking for all contexts2009-11-29 17:22:14
 so, any suggestions on how to solve that? ;)2009-11-29 17:22:35
<Krugz> noob: transform and conquer all your audio into simple frequencies first?2009-11-29 17:23:49
 XD2009-11-29 17:23:50
<Shelwien> Krugz: what are you talking about?2009-11-29 17:24:16
<Krugz> a pointless suggestion :P2009-11-29 17:24:36
<Shelwien> ...2009-11-29 17:25:10
 anyway, its been a long time since I encountered that problem2009-11-29 17:25:45
<Krugz> you said you can't do whatever you're trying to do without it being simple frequencies, so break everything complex into simple frequencies? I was just playing around, I don't know anything :P2009-11-29 17:25:46
<schnaader> Have to go now - was a nice chat again, will be here more often in future, so see ya all2009-11-29 17:26:41
<Shelwien> good luck ;)2009-11-29 17:26:50
<sami> Shelwien, I don't fully follow. unary CM must be implemented with SR, such that worst case average you encode 128 bits per byte2009-11-29 17:27:22
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<Shelwien> if its true unary, it can't be not 255 bits per byte ;)2009-11-29 17:28:01
 but even its some composite unary/binary, there's still the same question about probability recomputing2009-11-29 17:28:31
 well, another alternative is keeping direct stats and only use unary coding2009-11-29 17:29:20
 but that's unreasonably slow too2009-11-29 17:29:27
 the question is how to dynamically change the contextual symbol ranking2009-11-29 17:30:05
 along with contextual symbol statistics2009-11-29 17:30:15
<sami> there are such problems with speed with unary cm that you cannot get around with, at least I don't see it2009-11-29 17:30:17
<Shelwien> ppmd is an example of such unary2009-11-29 17:30:32
 it uses MTF/frequency sort ranking2009-11-29 17:31:05
<sami> my ppm simply kept the symbols in MTF order per context. ppmd sorts by freq2009-11-29 17:31:29
<Shelwien> only on rescale2009-11-29 17:31:40
 anyway, there was this Cyan guy in the forum2009-11-29 17:32:54
<sami> I don't know about the recent version, but I have the picture that it checked the ordering per freq update (swapping it with the above rank)2009-11-29 17:33:09
<Shelwien> and he posted a dummy bytewise rangecoder recently2009-11-29 17:33:12
 which works at >100Mb/s2009-11-29 17:33:32
 while bitwise fpaq0pv4B which is optimized, is only ~30Mb/s2009-11-29 17:34:03
<sami> was that adaptive? and what was used as test data?2009-11-29 17:34:14
<Shelwien> I used enwik92009-11-29 17:34:27
 and it was static2009-11-29 17:34:37
 but still2009-11-29 17:34:44
 http://encode.dreamhosters.com/showpost.php?p=9969&postcount=122009-11-29 17:35:33
 Krugz: Its a misunderstanding. I'm talking about statistical "frequencies" here, which is basically a weird term for plain symbol counts2009-11-29 17:37:43
 http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Frequency2009-11-29 17:39:04
 "Frequency is the number of occurrences of a repeating event per unit time"2009-11-29 17:39:16
 and our "unit" is whole file here, i guess2009-11-29 17:39:52
<sami> I can't say about static rc speeds since I haven't experimented much with those. I always huffman for all static stuff2009-11-29 17:40:04
<Shelwien> well, he did huffman later too there2009-11-29 17:40:25
<sami> although I have experimented with various pseudo adaptive rcs, but it's been a long time2009-11-29 17:41:02
<Shelwien> anyway, a static bitwise rc won't be that fast2009-11-29 17:41:29
 at least, unless its some multiplication-free or something2009-11-29 17:41:50
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<LiLGh0st> let's see what u guys are up to.. ^^2009-11-29 19:00:28
<Shelwien> we are not2009-11-29 19:00:52
<LiLGh0st> heh2009-11-29 19:01:14
 Krugz lied to me then =/2009-11-29 19:01:18
<Shelwien> you can read the log though2009-11-29 19:01:22
<Krugz> I did? 2009-11-29 19:01:40
<LiLGh0st> where be da log?2009-11-29 19:01:55
<Shelwien> http://ps16893.dreamhost.com/cgi-system/chantail.cgi?1002009-11-29 19:02:20
 http://ps16893.dreamhost.com/log2009-11-29 19:02:29
<LiLGh0st> ah2009-11-29 19:02:37
 thanks2009-11-29 19:02:37
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 ah, so you guys talk about file encoding here?2009-11-29 19:03:38
<Shelwien> in a way2009-11-29 19:03:46
<LiLGh0st> that's cool2009-11-29 19:03:49
<Shelwien> data compression2009-11-29 19:03:52
<LiLGh0st> hm...2009-11-29 19:04:03
<Shelwien> http://encode.dreamhosters.com/2009-11-29 19:04:07
<LiLGh0st> all i need is tar for linux, and rar for windows ;)2009-11-29 19:04:33
<Krugz> XD2009-11-29 19:04:41
<Shelwien> http://compressionratings.com2009-11-29 19:06:09
<LiLGh0st> damn lol2009-11-29 19:07:05
 they're not even ranked2009-11-29 19:07:08
 hm... i guess i should install nanozip on my servers then2009-11-29 19:08:11
<Shelwien> maybe2009-11-29 19:08:32
<LiLGh0st> do a comparison between video codecs ^^2009-11-29 19:09:04
 since that'll be useful for me2009-11-29 19:09:08
 video codecs and avisynth filters2009-11-29 19:09:15
<Shelwien> http://www.compression.ru/video/codec_comparison/mpeg-4_avc_h264_2009_en.html2009-11-29 19:09:39
<Krugz> I have to start packing, afk2009-11-29 19:11:48
<Shelwien> Packing is compression too, in a way2009-11-29 19:13:19
 http://www.ctxmodel.net/rem.pl?-2562009-11-29 19:13:21
<Krugz|afk> lolol -.-2009-11-29 19:13:38
 wrong kind of packing2009-11-29 19:13:43
* Krugz|afk is packing bags :P2009-11-29 19:13:49
<LiLGh0st> ah, thhe compression.ru one2009-11-29 19:13:57
 is kinda old2009-11-29 19:13:59
 since the new x2642009-11-29 19:14:14
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<sami> about lena format. I'm just going for bmp, I don't think headerless/raw will do any good, since tuning "universal compressors" to both 2d bitmap and (say) english text just doesn't make sense2009-11-29 19:14:16
<LiLGh0st> has MB-Trees2009-11-29 19:14:18
<Shelwien> why not tga or pgm?2009-11-29 19:14:44
 or was it ppm?..2009-11-29 19:14:50
<sami> pgm is ok2009-11-29 19:15:06
 or ppm whatever2009-11-29 19:15:13
 they are both just as simple. ppm/pgm would be simplier if there wouldn't be such vaguely defined header2009-11-29 19:15:55
<Shelwien> tga header is very simple too2009-11-29 19:16:14
<sami> bmp is easy since one has just a fixed struct that can be casted2009-11-29 19:16:15
<Shelwien> tga too, i actually use it sometimes2009-11-29 19:16:40
 more compact than bmp too2009-11-29 19:16:53
<sami> yes, I recall tga was simple but I don't right now recall how simple :-)2009-11-29 19:16:59
<Shelwien> very2009-11-29 19:17:12
<sami> ppm/pgm might have been my 1st choice but now I didn't happen to have lena in ppm :-)2009-11-29 19:17:51
<Shelwien> you can convert it, that should be lossless anyway2009-11-29 19:18:20
 and i really doubt that original lena is in bmp2009-11-29 19:18:34
<chornobl> vote for tga2009-11-29 19:19:20
<Shelwien> http://www.cs.cmu.edu/~chuck/lennapg/2009-11-29 19:20:27
<sami> currently the tests are running for: book1, obj2, geo, enwik6, zhwik62009-11-29 19:21:14
<LiLGh0st> heh picture compression2009-11-29 19:21:23
<sami> ok, I'm just going with ppm then2009-11-29 19:24:36
 perhaps I just add e.coli for dna since it's well known2009-11-29 19:26:51
<Shelwien> yeah, i guess2009-11-29 19:27:08
<sami> I'm thinking perhaps I'll cut the fp.log a bit if I'm to include that2009-11-29 19:27:20
<Shelwien> there're special compressors for dna though2009-11-29 19:27:34
<sami> I plan adding the ohs.doc and perhaps the hlp file2009-11-29 19:27:42
<Shelwien> pdf?2009-11-29 19:28:42
 maybe precomp'ed?2009-11-29 19:28:55
<sami> I like precomped better, but I'm not sure how big does that get then and if it's ok to just cut it2009-11-29 19:30:28
<Shelwien> not especially big i think2009-11-29 19:31:13
<sami> how about if I'd just cut them to 1mb, both log and pdf?2009-11-29 19:32:13
 precomped pdf I mean2009-11-29 19:32:22
<Shelwien> pdf probably ok, but not log2009-11-29 19:32:32
<sami> yeah, it's pretty redundant so large is ok. maybe 5mb?2009-11-29 19:32:57
<Shelwien> yeah2009-11-29 19:33:03
<sami> ok. what do you think about cutting the hlp and doc as well?2009-11-29 19:34:37
 well I'd need to check them more carefully as there might be different kind of segments2009-11-29 19:35:04
<Shelwien> ok i think2009-11-29 19:36:03
 as to segments you can use seg_file btw2009-11-29 19:36:15
<sami> yea, but I don't want to make them homogeneous2009-11-29 19:36:32
<Shelwien> http://ctxmodel.net/files/PPMd/segfile_sh2.rar2009-11-29 19:36:45
<sami> you mean segfile and then take samples of each segment and glue them together?2009-11-29 19:37:06
<Shelwien> as you like2009-11-29 19:37:16
 maybe drop redundant segments etc2009-11-29 19:37:37
 or plaintext in the doc, even2009-11-29 19:37:57
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<sami> I don't want to cut the text in the doc. perhaps I'm just not going to cut those files. perhaps acrord must be complete as well as it isn't homogeneous2009-11-29 19:39:15
<Shelwien> %)2009-11-29 19:39:46
<sami> it took over 3 hours to run book1 for all over 500 compressors (fast ones are run multiple times)2009-11-29 19:40:19
 not 500 compressors, but configurations2009-11-29 19:40:30
<Shelwien> are you in a hurry? ;)2009-11-29 19:41:45
<sami> I guess not :-)2009-11-29 19:42:21
 i used this http://download.wikimedia.org/zhwiki/20091129/zhwiki-20091129-pages-articles.xml.bz2 for zhwik2009-11-29 19:43:05
<Shelwien> what's the size?2009-11-29 19:43:35
<sami> 1mb2009-11-29 19:43:45
<Shelwien> wonder if we should suggest Matt to add it to LTCB ;)2009-11-29 19:44:34
<sami> I guess he wouldn't find it interesting as it would make "AI research" only more inconvenient2009-11-29 19:45:26
<Shelwien> well, his UIQ benchmark isn't related to AI, right?2009-11-29 19:47:21
<sami> right2009-11-29 19:47:34
<Shelwien> though I doubt that he'd do it anyway, as he'd have to benchmark some compressors to get initial statistics for zhwiki2009-11-29 19:48:15
 and that'd be time-consuming2009-11-29 19:48:26
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 sorry, i'm out for today, bye2009-11-29 19:57:10
<sami> bye2009-11-29 19:59:01
<Krugz> bye2009-11-29 19:59:03
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<FuSiyuan> Hi Shelwien~ I successfully connected this time 2009-11-30 01:33:49
  I gonna learn about Linux then. It's work time now ;)2009-11-30 01:35:29
<Krugz> learn about linux? where are you going to start?2009-11-30 01:36:25
<FuSiyuan>  especially about C++ under Linux2009-11-30 01:39:41
<Krugz> hmm C++ in linux? weird I think :P2009-11-30 01:40:18
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<Guest9968193> <Shelwien> and what you can write for these? new protocols?2009-11-30 06:15:43
 <FuSiyuan> However, I'm not in the team. The company is also concerning on online video. I'm going to work about this.2009-11-30 06:15:43
 <Shelwien> %)2009-11-30 06:15:43
 <Shelwien> youtube etc ripping?2009-11-30 06:15:43
 <FuSiyuan> Apache + MySQL C++ cgi these are the keywords~2009-11-30 06:15:43
 <FuSiyuan> Not completely the same. More about online movies2009-11-30 06:15:44
 <FuSiyuan> Rmvb is most widely used in china.2009-11-30 06:15:46
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<Shelwien> hi toffer2009-11-30 10:50:12
<toffer> hi2009-11-30 11:01:25
<Shelwien> ...2009-11-30 11:01:34
<toffer> i was visiting my girlfriend at work this weekend2009-11-30 11:01:37
 noted that the channel was rather busy this time2009-11-30 11:01:47
<Shelwien> well, i was trying to advertise it a little ;)2009-11-30 11:02:22
 not that anything interesting happened2009-11-30 11:02:41
 except that i suggested to Sami to use chinese wiki dump for testing ;)2009-11-30 11:02:57
 (zhwiki)2009-11-30 11:03:01
 !grep zhwiki2009-11-30 11:03:15
<toffer> and why the chinese wiki?2009-11-30 11:05:29
<Shelwien> because its not english?2009-11-30 11:05:39
 and also large enough and legal2009-11-30 11:05:59
 anyway2009-11-30 11:09:58
 i think i'm going to finally try implementing some new maths today2009-11-30 11:10:51
 an unary coding for BWT data2009-11-30 11:11:11
 with dynamic ranking2009-11-30 11:11:19
 and using doubles as the main variable type ;)2009-11-30 11:11:50
<toffer> btw how much slower are such float implementations2009-11-30 11:26:30
<Shelwien> significantly2009-11-30 11:26:57
 that's mainly because of integer conversions required for rc use2009-11-30 11:27:14
 and then because of larger memory use2009-11-30 11:27:28
 as float counters would use up at least 32 bits2009-11-30 11:27:41
 also, its relatively ok with SSE2 allowed2009-11-30 11:28:20
 but otherwise all the processing has to be done via old FPU-style instructions2009-11-30 11:28:50
 which are very limited2009-11-30 11:28:59
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 somehow, instead of unary code, i'd written a weird generalized version of MTF2009-11-30 16:48:06
 which allows to gain 3-4k on book1bwt comparing to normal one2009-11-30 16:48:23
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<schnaader> hi @ all2009-11-30 17:01:41
<Shelwien> hi2009-11-30 17:01:51
<schnaader> Hi Shelwien, I think I found a minor flaw in your P2P concept I'd like to discuss about.2009-11-30 17:02:32
<Shelwien> ?2009-11-30 17:02:41
<schnaader> It's about hash collisions, with f.e. Torrents this is not that likely to happen because you had to intentionally change a block in the file to have the same hash. But theoratically, it would be possible to "poison" a file like that.2009-11-30 17:04:34
<Shelwien> yeah, so?2009-11-30 17:05:32
 basically, we can use hash of any size for a fragment2009-11-30 17:06:08
<toffer> hi again2009-11-30 17:06:31
<Shelwien> in my implementation atm, for a collision to happen, a 64-bit crc has to match, and also fragment length2009-11-30 17:06:35
<toffer> could you post a fragment of that mtf, if possible - i'd look at it than2009-11-30 17:06:52
 hi schnaader2009-11-30 17:07:00
 wow the channel really fills up2009-11-30 17:07:08
<schnaader> hi toffer2009-11-30 17:07:09
 Yes, that's why I say the flaw is minor, actually it's very unlikely to happen, but it would at least be more likely than with actual implementations - although once in an Exabyte or so is still not a real problem :)2009-11-30 17:07:49
<Shelwien> toffer: i can post whole coder if you want. but the idea is that symbol rank not always changed to 0, but to a function of distance to its last occurence2009-11-30 17:07:52
<toffer> ok2009-11-30 17:08:08
 some plots would be interesting, too2009-11-30 17:08:15
<Shelwien> schnaader: as i started to explain, i use crc32-based hash (as i managed to implement an incremental version of crc32)2009-11-30 17:08:53
 so its much easier to forge than, say, sha1 etc2009-11-30 17:09:19
<toffer> i mean the mapping from distance to rank2009-11-30 17:10:08
<Shelwien> rank=C*distance2009-11-30 17:10:20
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 C=0.2 or something atm2009-11-30 17:10:34
<toffer> ok, that's simpler than i expected2009-11-30 17:10:38
 3-4k is rather much for book1. 2009-11-30 17:10:49
 what's the performance2009-11-30 17:11:09
 comperssion-wise, of course2009-11-30 17:11:18
<Shelwien> to be specific, its 235858 for bwt+mtf+fpaq0pv4b2009-11-30 17:11:39
 and 229496 for that weird mtf2009-11-30 17:11:58
 or 224696 vs 221140 using mix_test coder2009-11-30 17:12:20
<toffer> and the decomposition is really unary?2009-11-30 17:12:22
<Shelwien> err... its just a bytewise transform, not really related yet2009-11-30 17:13:02
 though i was thinking about how to update the ranks in unary coder2009-11-30 17:13:18
<toffer> so you replaced symbols by rank?2009-11-30 17:14:38
<Shelwien> schnaader: as with my backup the collision problem is even more important, my idea for fixing it is to add some recovery sectors, like in RAID or what rar does2009-11-30 17:15:21
 toffer: http://ctxmodel.net/files/mix_test/gmtf_v0.rar2009-11-30 17:19:14
<toffer> thanks2009-11-30 17:19:26
 i'll have alok2009-11-30 17:19:28
 lok2009-11-30 17:19:31
 look2009-11-30 17:19:34
<Shelwien> there're normal mtf and that new one in "xxx.inc"2009-11-30 17:19:55
 also http://googlepages.com is being funny only for me or for all?2009-11-30 17:20:47
<schnaader> Shelwien: Yes, thought about that, too. At least detection would be important, correction should be possible then. In P2P, you could actually build a hash collision "blacklist" after detection giving you a nice overview about possible collisions with the hash you use :)2009-11-30 17:23:51
<Shelwien> obviously there'd be a whole file checksum too2009-11-30 17:24:19
 also, its kinda interesting how this idea is quite compatible especially with completely distributed p2p networks2009-11-30 17:28:45
 i mean, it would be very hard to maintain a full hash DB for petabytes of data2009-11-30 17:29:26
 but it should be still ok for a few TB max which any user would share2009-11-30 17:30:04
<schnaader> Yes, the whole file checksum would be the obvious thing for detection, correction perhaps could involve checking hashes using a different hash algorithm or different blocksizes.2009-11-30 17:30:32
<Shelwien> as i said, the recovery data can be calculated once, along with hashing2009-11-30 17:31:08
 do you know that block xor algorithm which is used everywhere?2009-11-30 17:31:24
<schnaader> Yes, the RAID/RAR thing :)2009-11-30 17:31:44
 Soooo useful ;)2009-11-30 17:31:51
<Shelwien> kinda slow though2009-11-30 17:32:00
<schnaader> A 2D implementation could perhaps help with speed, too, but I'm not that sure about it.2009-11-30 17:32:35
<Shelwien> sure, but its limited by the allowed amount of redundancy2009-11-30 17:34:09
<schnaader> Damn, I've to go, a friend just phoned me and wants to meet... well, can't ignore real life :)2009-11-30 17:36:48
 so bye @ all - have a nice chat ;)2009-11-30 17:36:59
<Shelwien> ;)2009-11-30 17:37:03
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 http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Coroutine2009-11-30 19:57:06
* Shelwien wants to have these in C++2009-11-30 19:57:42
<Krugz> lol2009-11-30 20:01:43
 I'll look at it later just for fun, heading back to my dorm room right now2009-11-30 20:01:59
 bbs2009-11-30 20:02:04
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 hmm co-routines 2009-11-30 20:55:35
<Shelwien> ...2009-11-30 20:55:47
<Krugz> why do you need them? I mean, it sounds interesting but you can accomplish what you want with subroutines a little less efficiently?2009-11-30 20:56:03
<Shelwien> no way2009-11-30 20:56:22
 its kinda like pipes in the shell2009-11-30 20:57:00
<Krugz> ya I suppose that's true2009-11-30 20:57:36
 now that I think about it, there's probably a lot of problems that would benefit from this approach2009-11-30 20:57:52
 it's strange it's not in C++2009-11-30 20:58:05
<Shelwien> any complex project basically2009-11-30 20:58:08
 they say, its not it C/C++ because they keep local vars on stack2009-11-30 20:58:53
<Krugz> ah2009-11-30 20:59:20
 but can't they use the FP to compensate? 2009-11-30 20:59:39
<Shelwien> and there was no universal way to implement it to work with all C++ elements2009-11-30 21:00:29
<Krugz> eh that's too bad I suppose2009-11-30 21:01:01
 well a lot of things are being switched over to C# now anyways, right?2009-11-30 21:01:13
<Shelwien> compression can't be implemented in C#2009-11-30 21:01:37
<Krugz> really? Why's that?2009-11-30 21:01:59
<Shelwien> nor java or python or other fashionable stuff2009-11-30 21:02:05
 the main problem is speed2009-11-30 21:02:33
<Krugz> because they're OOP?2009-11-30 21:02:36
<Shelwien> no2009-11-30 21:02:42
<Krugz> so because of the VM? O.o;2009-11-30 21:02:49
<Shelwien> yeah2009-11-30 21:02:53
 and dumb memory management etc2009-11-30 21:02:58
<Krugz> ah but isn't C# supposed to be an improvement?2009-11-30 21:03:15
 @.@2009-11-30 21:03:21
<Shelwien> over what?2009-11-30 21:03:29
 its made to compete with sun's java2009-11-30 21:03:48
<Krugz> I thought it was supposed to be an upgrade for C++ essentially2009-11-30 21:04:40
<Shelwien> not really2009-11-30 21:04:55
<Krugz> I know some stuff about C# but really I have no background in it 2009-11-30 21:04:57
 haven't taken the time to go look into it, probably will soon enough2009-11-30 21:05:14
 well like, I heard they hid pointers from developers in C#, which made me kinda upset2009-11-30 21:05:38
<Shelwien> yeah, there's also a garbage collector running around2009-11-30 21:06:09
<Krugz> hmm well other then I/O streams, doesn't C++ usually do garbage cleaning too?2009-11-30 21:06:44
<Shelwien> no2009-11-30 21:06:59
 well, if only in some libraries2009-11-30 21:07:17
 C++ memory allocation is normally all explicit2009-11-30 21:07:33
<Krugz> hmm ya I guess that makes sense2009-11-30 21:07:48
 I've never really participated in a large-scale C++ program project, so I've never really had to worry about releasing unused memory2009-11-30 21:08:17
<Shelwien> http://compressionratings.com/s_scan.html2009-11-30 21:08:48
 "archiver template" is implemented with STL2009-11-30 21:09:09
 and my scanner with plain C++ and winapi2009-11-30 21:09:34
 5x speed difference ;)2009-11-30 21:09:48
<Krugz> :O2009-11-30 21:09:56
 when you say speed, you mean time to compress the same amount of data?2009-11-30 21:10:13
<Shelwien> or decompress2009-11-30 21:10:23
 but also its usually just impossible to compare them2009-11-30 21:10:41
 modern compression algorithms tend to use a lot of memory even if written in C++2009-11-30 21:10:59
 and it won't be possible to allocate enough memory for a C#/java program using a similar data structure2009-11-30 21:11:56
<Krugz> hmm2009-11-30 21:12:07
 I see2009-11-30 21:12:14
<Shelwien> well, if only on x64 with 16GB+ RAM or something ;)2009-11-30 21:12:17
<Krugz> is there any better alternative other then C++"2009-11-30 21:12:33
 ?*2009-11-30 21:12:34
<Shelwien> unfortunately no2009-11-30 21:12:48
<Krugz> lol I have 16GB RAM! (lies)2009-11-30 21:12:49
<Shelwien> i have 8G2009-11-30 21:12:58
 and 32-bit windows XP2009-11-30 21:13:03
 and 5GB ramdrive2009-11-30 21:13:10
<Krugz> :O2009-11-30 21:13:34
<Shelwien> there're no good compilers for languages other than C/C++2009-11-30 21:13:46
<Krugz> this laptop has 3GB, my PC has 4GB :P2009-11-30 21:13:47
<Shelwien> well, and fortran2009-11-30 21:13:50
 but who cares about fortran2009-11-30 21:13:55
<Krugz> lol2009-11-30 21:13:58
 business apps!2009-11-30 21:14:03
<Shelwien> swap to ramdrive!2009-11-30 21:14:36
<Krugz> ramdrive? o.O2009-11-30 21:14:53
<Shelwien> a partition in RAM2009-11-30 21:15:15
 very useful for temp storage etc2009-11-30 21:15:35
 and swap to ramdrive actually works2009-11-30 21:16:01
<Krugz> partition in RAM? O.o I'm confused2009-11-30 21:16:13
 do you mean partition on HD to be used like RAM? like paging files?2009-11-30 21:16:26
<Shelwien> the inverse2009-11-30 21:16:35
 RAM used to store files and visible as hdd2009-11-30 21:16:46
 but reset on reboot2009-11-30 21:16:58
<Krugz> how would that improve performance?2009-11-30 21:17:26
<Shelwien> well, just think what's the memory access speed, and what's hdd's2009-11-30 21:17:55
 also no seek time2009-11-30 21:18:06
<Krugz> but with cacheing and prefetching, there shouldn't be much HD searching anyways2009-11-30 21:18:26
<Shelwien> do you know that windows apps frequently store temp files?2009-11-30 21:18:56
<Krugz> ya it's stored in like a temp folder in system32, right?2009-11-30 21:19:18
<Shelwien> yeah, and you can redirect it2009-11-30 21:19:36
<Krugz> so basically you put those temp files on RAM for faster access?2009-11-30 21:20:42
<Shelwien> and also its very good for various repetitive tasks2009-11-30 21:20:45
 like applying regexps to few GBs of data2009-11-30 21:21:02
<Krugz> but those temp files, shouldn't they already be cached?2009-11-30 21:21:03
<Shelwien> not good enough, i guess2009-11-30 21:21:27
 and anyway 32-bit systems won't use that memory2009-11-30 21:21:47
<Krugz> hmm?2009-11-30 21:22:06
<Shelwien> http://www.geoffchappell.com/viewer.htm?doc=notes/windows/license/memory.htm2009-11-30 21:22:33
<Krugz> O.o weird2009-11-30 21:25:30
 I'd heard some stuff about this before2009-11-30 21:25:52
 I'll definitely read more into this2009-11-30 21:28:33
 right now I gotta eat and get ready for class2009-11-30 21:28:45
 always feels like there's a lot to learn... I don't even know where to really start2009-11-30 21:46:27
 seems like every time I feel comfortable with something, I find out I don't really know anything about it XD2009-11-30 21:46:56
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<jack> any body there2009-11-30 23:11:57
<Krugz> just me I think2009-11-30 23:13:11
<jack> where are you2009-11-30 23:13:35
<Krugz> where?2009-11-30 23:15:24
* jack slaps jack around a bit with a large fishbot2009-11-30 23:15:32
 how detailed?2009-11-30 23:15:33
 I'm US-East Coast2009-11-30 23:15:47
 that help?2009-11-30 23:15:49
<jack> in on the us mexucan border2009-11-30 23:16:05
 i'm near the border US side2009-11-30 23:16:26
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<Krugz> >.> wonder what that was about2009-11-30 23:27:05
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<Shelwien> !grep DMCA2009-12-01 11:01:33
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 !next2009-12-01 16:04:18