*** Krugz has joined the channel | 2009-11-27 20:46:50 |
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<Krugz> | I wonder, is anyone here? >.> | 2009-11-27 23:12:14 |
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<chornobl> | somebody certainly here | 2009-11-27 23:29:31 |
<Krugz> | heh | 2009-11-27 23:29:38 |
| interesting channel :o | 2009-11-27 23:30:06 |
<chornobl> | well yes, but now is friday night | 2009-11-27 23:30:34 |
<Krugz> | usually more active? | 2009-11-27 23:30:55 |
<chornobl> | at night mostly | 2009-11-27 23:31:10 |
<Krugz> | gotcha | 2009-11-27 23:31:17 |
| what do you do here? | 2009-11-27 23:31:46 |
<chornobl> | nothig special | 2009-11-27 23:32:05 |
| talk sometimes | 2009-11-27 23:32:11 |
| like now for example | 2009-11-27 23:32:37 |
<Krugz> | lol I meant, do you talk about data compression in here? | 2009-11-27 23:32:47 |
<chornobl> | ah i forgot, that too | 2009-11-27 23:33:09 |
<Krugz> | :P | 2009-11-27 23:33:12 |
| how do you forget? it's the name of the channel lol | 2009-11-27 23:33:30 |
<chornobl> | you get it | 2009-11-27 23:33:55 |
<Krugz> | anyhow I just happen to see it on the channel list and thought it looked interesting so I dropped in | 2009-11-27 23:34:34 |
* Krugz is a computer science major in univ. | 2009-11-27 23:34:50 |
<chornobl> | reading my mind, just wanted to ask how one get here | 2009-11-27 23:35:12 |
<Krugz> | speaking of comp sci.. any chance you know anything about MIPS architecture, specifically the opcodes? | 2009-11-27 23:36:07 |
| I'm working on an assignment for one of my classes | 2009-11-27 23:36:38 |
<chornobl> | not really :( | 2009-11-27 23:36:47 |
<Krugz> | that's ok, don't worry about it, just figured I'd ask | 2009-11-27 23:36:57 |
| data compression seems complicated, I'm a novice on the topic, I only understand the basic idea of how it tends to work | 2009-11-27 23:37:51 |
<chornobl> | theres allwey math behind it | 2009-11-27 23:38:17 |
* chornobl should learn math better | 2009-11-27 23:38:37 |
<Krugz> | I'm not that great at math either | 2009-11-27 23:39:00 |
| currently in Calculus 2 | 2009-11-27 23:39:08 |
| and not doing great there either -.-; | 2009-11-27 23:39:23 |
| brb | 2009-11-27 23:41:42 |
<chornobl> | k | 2009-11-27 23:41:46 |
<Krugz> | need to grab some form of caffeine | 2009-11-27 23:41:56 |
<chornobl> | that means coffe? | 2009-11-27 23:42:23 |
<Krugz> | in this case, yes | 2009-11-27 23:44:18 |
| starbucks frappuccino | 2009-11-27 23:44:34 |
<chornobl> | i guess that means you're from US | 2009-11-27 23:45:20 |
<Krugz> | born in Russia, living in US | 2009-11-27 23:46:32 |
| Russian-American yay me | 2009-11-27 23:46:50 |
<chornobl> | ну так это в корне меняет дело | 2009-11-27 23:46:57 |
<Krugz> | ah I should tell you, 1) I can't read those characters, 2) I can't read/speak russian much | 2009-11-27 23:47:27 |
| I moved when I was 5, so a lot of my Russian is just verbally learned, I already forgot a lot of it | 2009-11-27 23:47:47 |
<chornobl> | you can see that i'm not good in english either | 2009-11-27 23:48:18 |
<Krugz> | you're fine, most Americans are worse :P | 2009-11-27 23:48:37 |
<chornobl> | so guess were equal | 2009-11-27 23:48:45 |
| gee thank | 2009-11-27 23:48:50 |
<Krugz> | lol | 2009-11-27 23:48:55 |
<chornobl> | s | 2009-11-27 23:48:55 |
<Krugz> | it's not that you're very good, more like they're mostly very bad lol | 2009-11-27 23:49:10 |
<chornobl> | that is the sad part | 2009-11-27 23:49:29 |
<Krugz> | "yooooo wsup! hw r u!!" <-- :P | 2009-11-27 23:49:44 |
| yup, oh well | 2009-11-27 23:49:52 |
<chornobl> | same here actually | 2009-11-27 23:50:08 |
<Krugz> | what do you mean? | 2009-11-27 23:51:27 |
<chornobl> | words shortened and twisted by sms and internet | 2009-11-27 23:52:13 |
| and a lack of cyrillic characters in some areas | 2009-11-27 23:53:04 |
<Krugz> | gotcha | 2009-11-27 23:53:23 |
<chornobl> | see third link at the top, there are some compression related stuff like 350 posts back | 2009-11-27 23:58:01 |
<Krugz> | ya? | 2009-11-27 23:58:33 |
| I think right now I would be unable to decipher it all :P | 2009-11-27 23:58:58 |
| plus I'm busy trying to work on this MIPS assignment | 2009-11-27 23:59:08 |
<chornobl> | ah ok then | 2009-11-27 23:59:23 |
* chornobl going to sleep | 2009-11-27 23:59:51 |
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* Shelwien wonders who was that | 2009-11-28 06:10:48 |
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<Shelwien> | ? | 2009-11-28 07:26:31 |
* Krugz waves | 2009-11-28 07:26:44 |
<Krugz> | hello | 2009-11-28 07:26:46 |
<Shelwien> | hi | 2009-11-28 07:26:54 |
<Krugz> | Just randomly dropped in, saw it on the channel list and it seemed interesting | 2009-11-28 07:29:08 |
<Shelwien> | well, people forgot how to lurk so its never crowded here | 2009-11-28 07:30:22 |
<Krugz> | that's ok | 2009-11-28 07:30:34 |
<Shelwien> | but we have a log: http://ps16893.dreamhost.com/log/ | 2009-11-28 07:30:43 |
<Krugz> | hmm I'll think about it,but I'm not much for reading logs | 2009-11-28 07:31:09 |
<Shelwien> | well, if you have any suggestions about making them more readable, its welcome | 2009-11-28 07:31:52 |
| also its relatively readable, if anything, we have real discussions here | 2009-11-28 07:32:28 |
<Krugz> | heh you sure? I'm not exactly anyone particularly qualified to do so | 2009-11-28 07:32:35 |
<Shelwien> | i don't see how it requires any qualification | 2009-11-28 07:33:08 |
<Krugz> | idk, I assumed there would be a lot of technical jargon | 2009-11-28 07:33:24 |
<Shelwien> | err... afair there was a 3 hours of bodybuilding talks here - that's a problem for me too ;) | 2009-11-28 07:34:15 |
<Krugz> | lol | 2009-11-28 07:34:33 |
<Shelwien> | its not that topic-specific really | 2009-11-28 07:34:51 |
| just people from a forum chatting about random stuff | 2009-11-28 07:35:08 |
* Krugz nods | 2009-11-28 07:35:36 |
<Krugz> | ya I'm reading the first log | 2009-11-28 07:35:40 |
| I get the idea, though I'm sure if you guys went into the details I'd be lost | 2009-11-28 07:36:15 |
<Shelwien> | that's not that frequent unfortunately | 2009-11-28 07:36:43 |
<Krugz> | well I'm assuming the people who discuss things in here are already to the point where talking through all the details would be pointless for everyone | 2009-11-28 07:37:21 |
| it'd like watching professors explain for and while loops to each other :P | 2009-11-28 07:38:00 |
<Shelwien> | dunno | 2009-11-28 07:38:25 |
| user's point is very important too | 2009-11-28 07:38:34 |
<Krugz> | true enough | 2009-11-28 07:39:08 |
| well I don't have any real use for data compression, I'm just interested because it's ... interesting lol | 2009-11-28 07:39:34 |
<Shelwien> | so most of the people on the forum, and half here, are just people interested in testing experimental tools | 2009-11-28 07:39:46 |
| and in fact, i don't have any use for data compression too | 2009-11-28 07:40:10 |
| that's kinda normal with modern hdds etc | 2009-11-28 07:40:36 |
<Krugz> | hah that's kinda counterintuitive, I would assume the person making the most of the technology would be someone inspired by a problem they themselves faced | 2009-11-28 07:40:50 |
<Shelwien> | but the applications of algorithms developed for data compression | 2009-11-28 07:41:06 |
| are everywhere basically | 2009-11-28 07:41:12 |
<Krugz> | well ya, anywhere there's data.. | 2009-11-28 07:41:30 |
| :P | 2009-11-28 07:41:36 |
<Shelwien> | there's even compression-related algorithms in any modern x86 CPUs | 2009-11-28 07:42:08 |
| *there're | 2009-11-28 07:42:13 |
| like in caches | 2009-11-28 07:42:17 |
| or, especially, branch prediction | 2009-11-28 07:42:25 |
<Krugz> | hmm that I didn't really think about | 2009-11-28 07:42:57 |
<Shelwien> | and any optimization or prediction or storage or error-correction or cryptography or communications or recognition... etc... are related to that too | 2009-11-28 07:43:38 |
| as it all deals with data, like you said | 2009-11-28 07:43:57 |
<Krugz> | ya cryptography would have been my first choice as an alternate application | 2009-11-28 07:44:00 |
<Shelwien> | well, steganography is more related | 2009-11-28 07:44:29 |
| but there're even image scaling algorithms based on context models | 2009-11-28 07:44:59 |
| and plain data compression is just a good and objective measure of model quality | 2009-11-28 07:45:26 |
<Krugz> | lol you certainly know a lot about data compression and it's applications :P | 2009-11-28 07:45:52 |
<Shelwien> | basically, if your algorithm is good for compressing data, then it would be also good for predicting that data, and manipulating it | 2009-11-28 07:46:04 |
<Krugz> | ya that makes sense | 2009-11-28 07:46:23 |
<Shelwien> | well, its both my hobby and job | 2009-11-28 07:46:26 |
<Krugz> | did you get the job because it was your hobby or the other way around? | 2009-11-28 07:46:47 |
<Shelwien> | well, i guess first | 2009-11-28 07:47:33 |
| once I decided to help with compression.ru maintenance | 2009-11-28 07:48:08 |
| and that eventually brought me some jobs | 2009-11-28 07:48:27 |
<Krugz> | ah gotcha | 2009-11-28 07:48:43 |
<Shelwien> | btw, do you know about this program? http://soundslimmer.com/ | 2009-11-28 07:49:40 |
<Krugz> | another guy in here, Chernobl, was also Russian (or seemingly to me), is this like a mini-russian group? | 2009-11-28 07:49:51 |
<Shelwien> | asmodean here is japanese | 2009-11-28 07:50:12 |
| and one more guy | 2009-11-28 07:50:22 |
<Krugz> | oic | 2009-11-28 07:50:45 |
| well I guess I tip the balance towards Russian :P | 2009-11-28 07:51:00 |
| but don't try to speak Russian with me, it won't get either of us anywhere lol | 2009-11-28 07:51:12 |
<Shelwien> | well, the main language here is supposed to be english | 2009-11-28 07:51:46 |
<Krugz> | ya I figured :P, fine with me | 2009-11-28 07:52:02 |
<Shelwien> | forum is english-only in fact | 2009-11-28 07:52:09 |
| but half of the people there are russians | 2009-11-28 07:52:24 |
<Krugz> | anyhow, no I haven't seen this sound slimmer program before, I've never actively tried to compress files unless you're talking about things like .zip/.rar | 2009-11-28 07:52:39 |
<Shelwien> | http://forum.websound.ru/index.php?showtopic=24601 | 2009-11-28 07:53:45 |
<Krugz> | ah it's really too bad I can't read Russian, I've been trying to relearn but I'm too busy and it's not as easy as I'd hoped | 2009-11-28 07:54:58 |
<Shelwien> | well, then this: http://web.archive.org/web/20061117025944/http://www.soundslimmer.com/about_us_i.html | 2009-11-28 07:56:15 |
| somehow they don't have it there anymore ;) | 2009-11-28 07:56:26 |
<Krugz> | hmm weird, oh well though | 2009-11-28 07:58:39 |
| but it's cool that you have your name on it :P | 2009-11-28 07:59:00 |
<Shelwien> | there's even a canadian patent for it ;) | 2009-11-28 07:59:13 |
<Krugz> | nice | 2009-11-28 07:59:26 |
| hmm there's a lot of things I'd like to ask, trying to decide where I'd like to start | 2009-11-28 08:00:02 |
| what're you currently working on, if anything? | 2009-11-28 08:00:29 |
<Shelwien> | a remote backup application i guess, that's one job | 2009-11-28 08:00:53 |
| and a proprietary audio codec which followed after that soundslimmer | 2009-11-28 08:01:17 |
<Krugz> | hmm are you having any fun with either of them? | 2009-11-28 08:01:37 |
<Shelwien> | why, its interesting enough | 2009-11-28 08:02:02 |
| i'm only responsible for entropy coding (compression) part for that audio codec, though | 2009-11-28 08:02:24 |
| also, remote diffing is an interesting problem too | 2009-11-28 08:03:15 |
<Krugz> | I've heard that somewhere before.. I might know someone who does something related | 2009-11-28 08:03:58 |
<Shelwien> | say, you uploaded a big video file to a server via ftp | 2009-11-28 08:03:59 |
| then checked its crc, and it doesn't match | 2009-11-28 08:04:08 |
| and downloading it back to build a patch and fix it on the server is bad | 2009-11-28 08:05:06 |
| and uploading it again is even worse | 2009-11-28 08:05:14 |
<Krugz> | ya lol you keep losing or distorting it | 2009-11-28 08:05:31 |
<Shelwien> | yeah, so there's a workaround | 2009-11-28 08:06:16 |
| you can build a hash table from the remote file, and only download it (its small) | 2009-11-28 08:06:48 |
| and then generate a patch using only the hash table | 2009-11-28 08:07:05 |
| it would be more redundant than a "precise" patch | 2009-11-28 08:07:15 |
| but still by a few orders smaller than the whole file | 2009-11-28 08:07:36 |
| and then, my algorithm even works with stuff like remuxed video files | 2009-11-28 08:08:10 |
| kinda like these xdelta patches, but without having both version on one side | 2009-11-28 08:08:28 |
| and i'm thinking about eventually applying it for p2p | 2009-11-28 08:09:03 |
<Krugz> | hmm I sort of understand | 2009-11-28 08:09:12 |
| I didn't know you could patch a Hash though.. I don't really even think I understand how that's possible lol | 2009-11-28 08:09:35 |
<Shelwien> | as unlike torrent hashing system, my algorithm would allow to locate usable fragments anywhere | 2009-11-28 08:09:38 |
<Krugz> | sounds impressive, but I've only minorly worked with hashing | 2009-11-28 08:10:16 |
<Shelwien> | err... its simple... remote diff can be done with a torrent too | 2009-11-28 08:10:31 |
| suppose you'd generate a torrent for the local file | 2009-11-28 08:10:52 |
| and then "download" it over the broken remote file | 2009-11-28 08:11:10 |
<Krugz> | ya | 2009-11-28 08:11:34 |
<Shelwien> | but, torrent isn't really the right solution | 2009-11-28 08:12:05 |
| because even if you only delete a first byte from remote file | 2009-11-28 08:12:18 |
| it won't find any matches at all | 2009-11-28 08:12:27 |
<Krugz> | why's that? | 2009-11-28 08:12:37 |
<Shelwien> | dunno. its implemented like that | 2009-11-28 08:12:59 |
<Krugz> | ah ok | 2009-11-28 08:13:07 |
<Shelwien> | it only computes hashes for fixed data blocks | 2009-11-28 08:13:12 |
| so if a block moves somewhere, it won't be found anymore | 2009-11-28 08:13:37 |
<Krugz> | Ok, I think I understand | 2009-11-28 08:13:54 |
<Shelwien> | and i actually experienced such problems with ftp/http, especially when proxy is used | 2009-11-28 08:14:14 |
<Krugz> | so, the result is a corrupt file, right? | 2009-11-28 08:14:40 |
<Shelwien> | yeah, these protocols don't have any checks for corruption | 2009-11-28 08:15:00 |
<Krugz> | ok I see | 2009-11-28 08:15:13 |
<Shelwien> | but the real problem is when data offsets in the file don't match | 2009-11-28 08:15:16 |
<Krugz> | heh because the program is just running wild? | 2009-11-28 08:15:40 |
<Shelwien> | more like because of internet instability | 2009-11-28 08:16:14 |
| for example, a tcp packet only has 16-bit crc | 2009-11-28 08:17:07 |
| so when you're trying to transfer like 10GB of data | 2009-11-28 08:17:44 |
| some error is very likely to appear | 2009-11-28 08:17:56 |
<Krugz> | hmm ya that makes sense | 2009-11-28 08:18:17 |
<Shelwien> | and its quite possible that ftp client would send the packet with 1000 bytes of data | 2009-11-28 08:19:03 |
| and ftp server would receive a (broken) packet with 100 bytes of data, but accidentally the same crc | 2009-11-28 08:19:24 |
<Krugz> | well when you say quite possible, isn't it a very low chance? | 2009-11-28 08:19:52 |
<Shelwien> | say, we have a 1% of a tcp packet breaking in transmission (its much higher for wifi or just loaded networks btw) | 2009-11-28 08:20:36 |
<Krugz> | ok | 2009-11-28 08:21:04 |
<Shelwien> | and 1/65536 of such broken packets would have accidentally matching crcs | 2009-11-28 08:21:26 |
| because its 16 bits | 2009-11-28 08:21:30 |
<Krugz> | ok | 2009-11-28 08:21:41 |
<Shelwien> | and a packet size is ~1400 bytes | 2009-11-28 08:21:56 |
| so, once per 1400*100*65536 bytes | 2009-11-28 08:22:20 |
| you'd almost certainly have a crc collision and data error | 2009-11-28 08:22:39 |
<Krugz> | hmm | 2009-11-28 08:22:52 |
<Shelwien> | and thats only 9G | 2009-11-28 08:22:58 |
<Krugz> | then isn't it weird that it doesn't happen more often? Or is it just not noticeable? or maybe I don't download very large files often? | 2009-11-28 08:23:43 |
<Shelwien> | it doesn actually | 2009-11-28 08:23:55 |
| *it does | 2009-11-28 08:25:41 |
| why do you think there's par2 and rar recovery? | 2009-11-28 08:25:51 |
<Krugz> | par2? | 2009-11-28 08:26:13 |
<Shelwien> | its a usenet tool similar to rar recovery, but standalone | 2009-11-28 08:26:56 |
<Krugz> | ah ya, I googled it | 2009-11-28 08:27:11 |
<Shelwien> | its just that torrents are mostly used for big files now | 2009-11-28 08:27:38 |
<Krugz> | ya | 2009-11-28 08:27:55 |
<Shelwien> | and torrent downloaders do check their data and retry when necessary | 2009-11-28 08:28:01 |
| unlike ftp/http | 2009-11-28 08:28:07 |
<Krugz> | so you're working on/made an algorithm that gets around this problem? | 2009-11-28 08:29:40 |
<Shelwien> | well, kinda | 2009-11-28 08:30:32 |
| you see, its not always possible to use torrent on the remote server | 2009-11-28 08:30:51 |
| like, hostings sometiles provide shell accounts | 2009-11-28 08:31:11 |
| but they don't allow to run torrents | 2009-11-28 08:31:20 |
| *sometimes | 2009-11-28 08:31:27 |
<Krugz> | ya | 2009-11-28 08:31:27 |
<Shelwien> | and main benefit of my algorithm | 2009-11-28 08:32:31 |
| is that it allows to detect file similarities | 2009-11-28 08:32:51 |
| (matching fragments etc) | 2009-11-28 08:32:58 |
| without having full content for any file | 2009-11-28 08:33:18 |
<Krugz> | ah I see | 2009-11-28 08:33:50 |
| sounds complicated lol | 2009-11-28 08:33:59 |
<Shelwien> | basically, its like if you could start downloading torrents of both v1 and v2 videos | 2009-11-28 08:34:15 |
| and the downloader would automatically detect similar fragments in the files | 2009-11-28 08:34:38 |
| and won't download it twice | 2009-11-28 08:34:45 |
<Krugz> | oh that's interesting | 2009-11-28 08:34:50 |
<Shelwien> | unfortunately, the current torrent hashing algorithm doesn't allow that | 2009-11-28 08:35:14 |
<Krugz> | because the hash is too small? | 2009-11-28 08:35:30 |
<Shelwien> | no, because block offsets are fixed | 2009-11-28 08:36:03 |
<Krugz> | ah | 2009-11-28 08:36:09 |
<Shelwien> | it won't change for torrents even if you could set it to block size = 1 byte | 2009-11-28 08:36:25 |
| but different hashing schemes allow that | 2009-11-28 08:36:39 |
<Krugz> | ah I see | 2009-11-28 08:36:52 |
<Shelwien> | and that's not all | 2009-11-28 08:36:53 |
| http://schnaader.info/precomp.html | 2009-11-28 08:36:57 |
| there're also tools like that | 2009-11-28 08:37:10 |
| so eventually it would be possible | 2009-11-28 08:37:26 |
| to find a content for the rar archive you're downloading | 2009-11-28 08:37:51 |
| in an alternative release in a zip archive | 2009-11-28 08:38:01 |
<Krugz> | hmm | 2009-11-28 08:38:59 |
| that's a cool way to think about it | 2009-11-28 08:39:26 |
<Shelwien> | well, it requires a completely different p2p engine though | 2009-11-28 08:39:50 |
<Krugz> | ya, but the basics are there already | 2009-11-28 08:40:10 |
| sounds like a great idea | 2009-11-28 08:40:29 |
<Shelwien> | sure | 2009-11-28 08:40:55 |
| utorrent is really annoying as it downloads the same file with different names multiple times | 2009-11-28 08:41:19 |
<Krugz> | I've used a few different torrent downloaders, I prefer bittorrent so far | 2009-11-28 08:42:03 |
| nothing technical about it though, just feels the best to me :P | 2009-11-28 08:42:25 |
<Shelwien> | well, utorrent is mainstream now | 2009-11-28 08:42:40 |
| after bittorrent developers bought it | 2009-11-28 08:42:51 |
<Krugz> | oh they bought it? I really don't keep up with these things.. | 2009-11-28 08:43:11 |
<Shelwien> | i also recently used a client called transmission | 2009-11-28 08:43:39 |
<Krugz> | hmm I don't think I've ever heard of that one | 2009-11-28 08:43:54 |
<Shelwien> | its a C++ open source client with most features | 2009-11-28 08:43:56 |
<Krugz> | ah ok, that's cool | 2009-11-28 08:44:09 |
<Shelwien> | and it has a headless mode etc | 2009-11-28 08:44:15 |
<Krugz> | headless? | 2009-11-28 08:44:30 |
<Shelwien> | you can run it on a remote server without GUI etc | 2009-11-28 08:44:52 |
<Krugz> | ah ok | 2009-11-28 08:44:59 |
<Shelwien> | and control via webinterface or something | 2009-11-28 08:45:06 |
<Krugz> | gotcha | 2009-11-28 08:45:14 |
<Shelwien> | there're also some 3rd-party remote control guis | 2009-11-28 08:45:20 |
| and it has very low memory usage | 2009-11-28 08:45:40 |
| my server here (ps16893) has a 150M memory limit | 2009-11-28 08:46:07 |
<Krugz> | so you were thinking of using that open source client as a base for your idea? | 2009-11-28 08:46:21 |
<Shelwien> | but it doesn't look like any problem at all ;) | 2009-11-28 08:46:24 |
| not really | 2009-11-28 08:46:34 |
<Krugz> | lol nice server | 2009-11-28 08:46:36 |
<Shelwien> | just downloading warez | 2009-11-28 08:46:39 |
| $5/month | 2009-11-28 08:46:41 |
<Krugz> | 5$? | 2009-11-28 08:46:51 |
| for what? | 2009-11-28 08:47:01 |
<Shelwien> | well, actually $15 but i have a discount | 2009-11-28 08:47:03 |
| a virtual server | 2009-11-28 08:47:12 |
<Krugz> | ah ok | 2009-11-28 08:47:16 |
<Shelwien> | unlim traffic/storage | 2009-11-28 08:47:23 |
| and full root access inside (there's debian) | 2009-11-28 08:47:42 |
| so its not really different from a full dedicated server | 2009-11-28 08:48:07 |
<Krugz> | cool, so you just have your warez available to you wherever you go | 2009-11-28 08:48:12 |
<Shelwien> | yeah, kinda | 2009-11-28 08:48:23 |
| and as to "base for my idea" | 2009-11-28 08:49:03 |
| i'm more interested in japanese networks for that | 2009-11-28 08:49:16 |
| like winny/share/PD | 2009-11-28 08:49:21 |
<Krugz> | why's that? | 2009-11-28 08:49:30 |
<Shelwien> | they have some unique concepts | 2009-11-28 08:49:40 |
<Krugz> | oh I've been meaning to ask, what time zone are you located in? | 2009-11-28 08:50:28 |
<Shelwien> | and torrent might die soon | 2009-11-28 08:50:43 |
<Krugz> | you think so? | 2009-11-28 08:50:55 |
<Shelwien> | piratebay promoting magnet links and DHT etc | 2009-11-28 08:51:23 |
| and various filters and shapers with torrent support | 2009-11-28 08:51:44 |
| its just the same story that happened in japan long ago | 2009-11-28 08:52:02 |
<Krugz> | ? | 2009-11-28 08:52:11 |
<Shelwien> | people going in jail for p2p etc | 2009-11-28 08:52:26 |
| so their p2p uses different protocols from what europeans accustomized to | 2009-11-28 08:52:56 |
<Krugz> | you think piratebay will be jailed? | 2009-11-28 08:52:56 |
<Shelwien> | dunno, it seems like they have money to avoid that | 2009-11-28 08:53:17 |
<Krugz> | different protocols? Are they really that different? | 2009-11-28 08:53:34 |
<Shelwien> | yeah | 2009-11-28 08:53:44 |
| they're designed with an idea in mind | 2009-11-28 08:53:55 |
<Krugz> | ? | 2009-11-28 08:54:04 |
<Shelwien> | that you can't prove that a person shares illegal content | 2009-11-28 08:54:12 |
| even if you downloaded that content from that person | 2009-11-28 08:54:20 |
| one of their features is something like cache | 2009-11-28 08:54:54 |
| the p2p client downloads random stuff and stores there in encrypted form | 2009-11-28 08:55:18 |
| a few GBs | 2009-11-28 08:55:22 |
| and then shares it | 2009-11-28 08:55:30 |
| and you don't know what's there, unless you'd accidentally try to download a file | 2009-11-28 08:56:19 |
| which is already cached | 2009-11-28 08:56:23 |
<Krugz> | I don't see how that protects them though | 2009-11-28 08:56:47 |
<Shelwien> | as i said, you can't put a person to jail | 2009-11-28 08:57:02 |
<Krugz> | it's a little confusing, but I think I'm just tired | 2009-11-28 08:57:37 |
<Shelwien> | after demonstrating that you can download an illegal file from that person's computer | 2009-11-28 08:57:40 |
| because he doesn't control that | 2009-11-28 08:58:10 |
<Krugz> | I kinda understand | 2009-11-28 08:58:47 |
<Shelwien> | well, also encryption and user identification is unique too | 2009-11-28 08:58:51 |
| its much harder to filter these like they do with torrents | 2009-11-28 08:59:12 |
| also file search too | 2009-11-28 09:00:13 |
| you can never acquire a list of files shared by specific user | 2009-11-28 09:00:45 |
| err... i mean, by a user with specific ip | 2009-11-28 09:01:16 |
<Krugz> | ah well, not to cut you short but I'm going to have to go to sleep soon | 2009-11-28 09:01:31 |
| it's 4am here :P | 2009-11-28 09:01:41 |
<Shelwien> | well, its 11 here | 2009-11-28 09:01:57 |
<Krugz> | ah ok | 2009-11-28 09:02:05 |
<Shelwien> | +2 or something | 2009-11-28 09:02:07 |
| ukraine | 2009-11-28 09:02:09 |
<Krugz> | EST, US east coast | 2009-11-28 09:02:17 |
| anyways thanks a lot for the chat, that was fun, I learned a lot in a short period of time lol | 2009-11-28 09:02:54 |
<Shelwien> | well, it'd be useful if you could lurk here ;) | 2009-11-28 09:03:11 |
<Krugz> | I'm currently on a holiday break (thanksgiving), so I'll be around for a while, and I'll try to stay after too | 2009-11-28 09:03:39 |
<Shelwien> | well, i can't promise much news, unless somebody talks to me | 2009-11-28 09:04:22 |
<Krugz> | just curious, do you know anything about the Edsac? | 2009-11-28 09:04:23 |
<Shelwien> | but having more people here would be useful | 2009-11-28 09:04:32 |
<Krugz> | sure I'd be willing to help out, if I can lol | 2009-11-28 09:04:55 |
<Shelwien> | http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/EDSAC ? | 2009-11-28 09:05:08 |
<Krugz> | yup | 2009-11-28 09:05:21 |
<Shelwien> | are you building a model? ;) | 2009-11-28 09:05:29 |
<Krugz> | no nothing that complicated | 2009-11-28 09:05:36 |
| just writing code for the simulator | 2009-11-28 09:05:45 |
| I have a hardware architecture class, and an early assignment was to program for this Edsac simulator | 2009-11-28 09:06:10 |
<Shelwien> | nice too | 2009-11-28 09:06:20 |
<Krugz> | our professor is very lax on the due dates, so I can still do it | 2009-11-28 09:06:21 |
<Shelwien> | i'd write a compiler though | 2009-11-28 09:06:26 |
<Krugz> | lolol I'm not good enough for that kind of thing | 2009-11-28 09:06:38 |
<Shelwien> | its not really harder than interpreter | 2009-11-28 09:06:51 |
| but works much faster | 2009-11-28 09:07:02 |
| like JIT etc | 2009-11-28 09:07:05 |
<Krugz> | I honestly think it would be out of my league | 2009-11-28 09:07:19 |
| I'm way behind on what I should know in computer science, my own laziness | 2009-11-28 09:07:36 |
<Shelwien> | http://www-jpc.physics.ox.ac.uk/doom.html | 2009-11-28 09:08:10 |
| like that ;) | 2009-11-28 09:08:13 |
<Krugz> | ah ya, that would take me a while to make lol | 2009-11-28 09:08:35 |
| the applet seems to be down, but I know what you were trying to show me | 2009-11-28 09:09:40 |
<Shelwien> | nah, i checked and it worked | 2009-11-28 09:09:54 |
| probably browser/java compatibility | 2009-11-28 09:10:04 |
<Krugz> | maybe my java is out of date or something? | 2009-11-28 09:10:06 |
<Shelwien> | maybe | 2009-11-28 09:10:12 |
<Krugz> | what browser are you using? | 2009-11-28 09:10:29 |
<Shelwien> | mozilla 1.3 ;) | 2009-11-28 09:10:40 |
<Krugz> | old :o | 2009-11-28 09:10:44 |
<Shelwien> | and chrome | 2009-11-28 09:10:46 |
<Krugz> | I'm using newest mozilla | 2009-11-28 09:10:59 |
| is there any good in chrome? I didn't want to play with it | 2009-11-28 09:11:10 |
| ah just needed to restart firefox, working now | 2009-11-28 09:11:30 |
<Shelwien> | well, its fast and compatible with google's web apps | 2009-11-28 09:11:50 |
<Krugz> | hmm gotcha | 2009-11-28 09:12:20 |
<Shelwien> | also my old mozilla includes browser/mailer/editor at once | 2009-11-28 09:13:04 |
| but it seems like there's no such an install anymore | 2009-11-28 09:13:22 |
| separate firefox and thunderbird, and what about html editor? | 2009-11-28 09:13:39 |
<Krugz> | anyways, I'm going to try to get some sleep, I'll be around tomorrow. I'll probably spend the day working on that edsac simulator coding. | 2009-11-28 09:14:09 |
| I think HTML editor is built into firefox | 2009-11-28 09:14:19 |
<Shelwien> | don't see it there | 2009-11-28 09:15:32 |
<Krugz> | right click on a page and view source? | 2009-11-28 09:16:11 |
| not sure if you'd consider that an "editor" | 2009-11-28 09:16:21 |
| it's just color coding the tags and stuff | 2009-11-28 09:16:28 |
<Shelwien> | no, there's a real html editor in my mozilla 1.3 | 2009-11-28 09:16:57 |
| and some javascript developer tools too | 2009-11-28 09:17:09 |
<Krugz> | I guess supporting those things became too problematic | 2009-11-28 09:17:49 |
| so thanks again, this was fun | 2009-11-28 09:18:24 |
<Shelwien> | ;) | 2009-11-28 09:18:46 |
<Krugz> | I'll cya tomorrow or whenever, good morning? day? | 2009-11-28 09:18:54 |
<Shelwien> | well, i'd probably be around at the same time | 2009-11-28 09:19:49 |
| !next | 2009-11-28 09:20:48 |